Welcome to Rathalas, everyone. Such a lovely place… This week on the Oathbringer Reread, we return to the city where, once upon a time, Dalinar showed mercy to the wife and the young son of his adversary. Sadly, in Alethkar, such signs of humanity are not often reciprocated.
As you may have noticed, we decided to break up the two chapters after all; it was just too much to cram into one week. Sorry, not really very sorry at all.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, there is no wider Cosmere discussion, but we definitely make references to later events. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Past!Dalinar
WHERE: Rathalas
WHEN: 1162 (About eleven years ago)
Dalinar and a company of his elites charge off after the suspicious caravan reported by the scouts. As they catch up, Dalinar notices a number of small inconsistencies, but doesn’t put it together until his momentum has carried him right into the landslide ambush. When he regains consciousness, he realizes that Tanalan’s men will want to retrieve his Shards; he lets them do the spade-work, then springs up to confront them with a live Shardbearer instead of a dead one. Oops. When they’re all dead, he makes his way by star-reckoning back to the Rift, determined to destroy Rathalas once and for all.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Only Red
Dalinar saw only red.
… Behind him lay a pile of corpses with burned eyes, piled high around the hole where Dalinar had stood, fighting against them.
AA: This moment comes from the aftermath of the ambush, when Dalinar begins to return to sanity after his Thrill-berserker fight with Tanalan’s men. In retrospect, it’s pretty obvious that this is connected to the red associated with Nergaoul, though we didn’t know as much about it at the time.
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Oathbringer
AP: It doesn’t let up until the end of Chapter 76 either. It’s a long burn.
Heralds
Nalan (Skybreakers, Judge, Just and Confident, Vapor, Smoke/Fog) and Talenel (Stonewards, Soldier, Dependable and Resourceful, Talus, Rock/Stone)
AA: Well, there are just all sorts of things going on here. For the first chapter, Nalan as judge doesn’t really make a lot of sense, unless you view Dalinar as a sort of Judgement Descendeth Upon Thee figure. The one other thing I’m seeing is his (too late) putting together all the clues that add up to “It’s a trap!”
AP: Judgement as divine retribution fits for sure. Dalinar is also overconfident when going right into the ambush.
AA: Talenel is everywhere, though. Dalinar as soldier. The soldiers who go with him. The rocks that fall on them. Dalinar’s resourcefulness in letting the enemy dig him out for his Shards, only to destroy them all. And of course, his long march back to the Rift, going cross-country to avoid searchers. I have to wonder if the Thrill is, perhaps, akin to the “madness” associated with Taln. (For reference, there is a madness associated with each of the Heralds, but that list isn’t public. In fact, so little is known about them that we have no clue whether “madness” means a mental illness, or something linked to an Unmade, or… what. No clues.)
Icon
Kholin Glyphpair, inverse for a Dalinar flashback
Thematic Thoughts
Two fires burned inside him. First the energy of the Plate, lending power to each step. The second fire was the Thrill.
AA: Hello there, Unmade. So… interesting to meet you here.
AP: It’s so interesting to me to go back and reread this section, knowing what we do now about the Unmade. It’s so obvious that the extreme battle lust is supernatural in origin, but I completely missed it the first time around. Since we have so much “battle magic” associated with the Shardplate and Shardblades, I didn’t even think about the Thrill in supernatural terms. I had put it more in the category of a “runner’s high” or an adrenaline surge, when obviously it’s much more than that.
The Thrill seemed to transform within him as he ran, soaking into his tiring muscles, saturating him. It became a power unto itself. So, when they crested a hillside some distance south of the Rift, he felt somehow more energetic than when he’d left.
AA: Okay, this is weird. Is Nergaoul feeding Dalinar Voidlight? Or Stormlight? How is this working?
… All around him, Tanalan’s men’s eyes seemed to glow. They gathered and grinned at him; he could see the Thrill thick in their expressions. … Blood streaming down the side of his face, Dalinar grinned back at them.
AA: Just in case anyone needed the reminder, Nergaoul doesn’t really choose a side. If the Thrill can dominate both sides, so much the better for him. I’m curious, though; Dalinar is one man with a Shardblade and badly damaged Shardplate, fighting against a large-ish group of men with normal swords and armor. Does his extra connection to Nergaoul, nurtured by Odium all these years, make a difference in the outcome of this fight? Obviously even damaged Plate is better than nothing, and a Shardblade is far more effective than anything the others have, but if they stood back and just threw rocks at him for a while, would that have worked better? Or… is Odium/Nergaoul playing tricks here? Is the same Thrill that apparently strengthens Dalinar responsible for making the Rifters throw themselves at him and get slaughtered instead of taking a more prudent approach?
AP: I do think the extra connection that was fostered does make a difference, as well as the base skill level of the fighters involved. I think the Thrill interferes with rational decision making for sure. Throwing rocks and a wounded enemy is much less satisfying to a bloodlust monster than a risk taking last stand.
Drained, he bound the worst of his wounds, then grabbed Oathbringer and set it on his shoulder. Never had a Shardblade felt so heavy.
He started walking.
Along the way, he discarded pieces of Shardplate, which grew too heavy. He’d lost blood. Far too much.
…
The Thrill returned to urge him on. For this walk was a fight. A battle.
AA: Same question occurs… is the Thrill feeding him Investiture somehow? And further… he’s not a Radiant yet. How is he able to use Stormlight or Voidlight at this point? Or is Nergaoul somehow giving him strength directly?
AP: I think the latter. Those who are healed by Stormlight/investiture don’t have to be able to access it themselves. This seems similar. Somehow the Unmade is fortifying Dalinar so that he can go out and keep fighting.
AA: Oh, good point! It’s not necessary for Dalinar to be healing himself. In fact, he may not necessarily be healing much at all; he’s just getting supernatural strength from the Unmade.
In that darkness, shadowed figures seemed to accompany him. Armies made of red mist at the corners of his vision, charging forces that fell to dust and then sprouted from shadow again, like surging ocean waves in a constant state of disintegration and rebirth.
AA: Aside from being seriously creepy, this seems so very much like some of the imagery from the Thaylen Field battle. In that far-future event, the red fog is much in evidence, plus Shallan makes a lot of Illusory soldiers. I’m not sure how parallel this is supposed to be, but the similarity is strong.
AP: It’s definitely meant to be a parallel. Reading this passage after knowing what Nergaoul’s influence looks like makes it really obvious what’s happening here.
AA: As a side note… this is the most fun part of doing an in-depth reread. You actually stop and think about things like this, and you discover connections that were impossible to see on the first read. The battle on Thaylen Field didn’t necessarily remind me of this flashback, but rereading this scene now irresistibly reminds me of the later scene.
Relationships & Romances
Evi, comforted by Brightness Kalami, was weeping, though Ialai studied the table full of maps.
AA: Minor rabbit trail… Obviously Ialai wouldn’t be as emotionally affected by Dalinar’s presumed death as Evi would; Ialai’s husband is right here, and her role is to help evaluate the plans and logistics. I can’t help wondering what Navani would have been doing—either as Gavilar’s wife, or if she had married Dalinar instead.
“Dalinar?” Evi stood up. “Husband?” She stepped forward, toward the table.
Then he turned toward her, and she stopped. Her unusual, pale Westerner skin grew even more starkly white. She stepped backward, pulling her hands toward her chest, and gaped at him, horrified, fearspren growing up from the ground around her.Dalinar glanced toward a sphere lantern, which had a polished metal surface. The man who looked back seemed more Voidbringer than man, face crusted over with blackened blood, hair matted with it, blue eyes wide, jaw clenched. He was sliced with what seemed to be a hundred wounds, his padded uniform in tatters.
AA: I love this moment, in a weird way. Seeing Evi’s reaction to the physical appearance of her husband gives it much more impact. But I have to ask again, referring back to the previous flashback where Evi said, “Do not feed it”—does Evi sense the influence of the Unmade here? Is she reacting solely to Dalinar’s appearance, or can she see Nergaoual’s presence in him? I can’t prove it, but I have a strong suspicion that it’s the latter.
“You shouldn’t do this,” Evi said. “Rest. Sleep, Dalinar. Think about this. Give it a few days.”
AA: Poor Evi. Dalinar listened to her earlier, and it gave Tanalan the opportunity to reinforce the ambush set-up. It’s not her fault, of course; Dalinar himself acknowledged that Tanalan had set it up far in advance, and it never depended on attempting to negotiate. But he blames her anyway, and would rather follow Sadeas’s approach than Evi’s now.
AP: It’s not just that. At this point, he is so under the influence of the Thrill that he is unable to stop and take a break to think it through. He’s thoroughly committed now.
Oh, and someone take my wife to her tent so she may recover from her unwarranted grief.
AA: And that’s the last time we’ll see Evi alive. But we’ll talk about that next week.
AP: Oh Evi, sigh. It’s really horrific from her point of view. She knows her husband is a warrior, but she has rarely had to confront that evidence so directly. I absolutely give her credit for attempting to take action within her moral code. But we will look at how horribly wrong that goes next week…
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
Sadeas, a traitor? Impossible. He had supported Gavilar all along. Dalinar trusted him. And yet…
AA: And yet… scarcely a single reader doubted that Sadeas could be a traitor, and I’m betting a high percentage of us believed the story completely. Seeing this in a flashback has a very mixed effect; at this point in time, Sadeas was still loyal to the Kholins, but we know he got over that eventually. It does put a slightly different spin on that conversation, back in The Way of Kings, where Dalinar tells Adolin that Sadeas is still loyal to Elhokar and is to be trusted, even though they hate each other. I wonder how much of Dalinar’s assumption of Sadeas’s loyalty comes from having suspected him at Rathalas and been proven wrong.
AP: Yep, I was completely taken in by it right until the last second.
Ahead, down the hill and at the mouth of a canyon, a frantic group was scrambling to arms.
AA: Or maybe a not-so-frantic group pretending to look frantic…
Wait.
His momentum wouldn’t let him stop now. Where was the enemy Shardbearer?
Something is wrong.
AA: Ya think?
Why would they put on Sadeas’s colors if they’re a secret envoy bringing contraband supplies?
AA: Now’s a fine time to wonder.
He saw no sign of a Shardbearer as the enemy gathered above. And … those uniforms …
He blinked. That … that was wrong.
…
This … this was a trap. …
Sadeas was not a traitor. This had been designed by the Rift and its highlord to lure Dalinar in, then drop stones to crush him. …
AA: It’s plot-convenient, but it’s also totally believable. Dalinar trusted his scouts; it didn’t occur to him that they could do a good job for a long time and then turn on him. The set-up, for all the minor inconsistencies, was eminently plausible, and Dalinar (especially with the Thrill energizing him) just couldn’t put together the clues until it was too late.
A fire ignited inside him.
You have been betrayed, Dalinar. Listen. He heard voices—men picking through the wreckage of the rockslide. … Stones scraped, and the burden upon him lightened. The Thrill built to a crescendo. The stone near his head rolled back.
Go.
AA: Try to ambush the Blackthorn, would you? Good luck with that!
It really should have worked, though. Even Plate can’t be counted on to keep you alive when a mountainside falls on you. Why did it fail? Was it just a matter of a few seconds’ timing so that he wasn’t hit by as much rock as they intended? Sheer luck? Or was it the Thrill working to keep Odium’s future champion alive?
AP: Plot device, Mr. Frodo! Really though, it’s an unpredictable trap. Huge risk, but huge reward with plate and a blade if it succeeds. And (seemingly) low risk to Tanalan if it failed, because his city was already under siege. He sure misjudged that one…
“We sent a team of scouts to inform you as soon as Tanalan turned on us and cast our soldiers off his walls. Our force reported all men lost, an ambush…”
…
“You sent the same scouts,” he whispered, “who first spied on the caravan, and reported seeing a Shardbearer leading it?”
“Yes,” Teleb said.
“Traitors,” Dalinar said. “They’re working with Tanalan.”
AA: Here’s where a little, insignificant line from Chapter 71 suddenly becomes a Big, Important Note: “I sent a scout team to tail them, men who know the area…” Men, in other words, who had families locally, who could be induced to betray Dalinar for money or for the lives of their families. Possibly, men who had “joined” the Kholin forces exactly for such an opportunity.
“They used my name to betray you,” Sadeas said, then spat to the side. “We will suffer rebellions like this time and time again unless they fear us, Dalinar.”
Dalinar nodded slowly. “They must bleed,” he whispered. “I want them to suffer for this. Men, women, children. They must know the punishment for broken oaths. Immediately.”
AA: It’s… not incomprehensible. As noted, they were betrayed by their own scouts, and using the name of a loyal ally. Their anger is understandable. The extent of their anger, though… understandable or not, it’s indefensible. The escalation is just wrong. You know the old saying, “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth”? People have made snarky jokes about it being a quick way to a sightless, toothless world, but that’s because we leave out the context. In context, part of the point is that the punishment can only be as severe as the crime. You’re not allowed to kill someone who knocked out your tooth and call it “justice”—that’s how you get the old “Hatfield and McCoy” scenario. So here, in response to a betrayal and the ambush of Dalinar and his company of elites, they set out on an unjust retribution: the destruction of the city and all its inhabitants. Not merely the fighting men, not just the highlord or even his family, but all the people. Men, women, children, babies, elderly, those who have no defense, even those who might disagree with their highlord’s refusal to join Gavilar. No opportunity for anyone to surrender. Dalinar and Sadeas are going to “teach them a lesson.” “Make them an example.” Militarily, and particularly in Alethi culture, I would imagine it “makes sense” in its way. But it’s still wrong.
AP: Even within Alethi culture it’s wrong and goes against the honor codes. There are not allowances to kill an entire city full of non-combatants. It also shows the relationship between Dalinar and Sadeas in a greater depth. When you’ve been committing war crimes together, Dalinar’s abrupt and complete personality change has to come as quite a shock to Sadeas. It’s very difficult for the reader to reconcile this version of Dalinar with the honorable general we know from the prior books. I’m sure it would be even more difficult for in-world characters to do the same.
AA: I still believe Sadeas was an utter slime, but seeing this side of Dalinar, and the way they worked together on these campaigns—you’re right, it makes Sadeas’s attitude toward him in The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance much more understandable. It’s a fascinating parallel: Most readers sympathize with the Dalinar we grew to appreciate in the first books, and have a hard time with past!Dalinar. For the Alethi, it’s the reverse: They appreciated the Blackthorn and have a hard time with Code-following Dalinar. (I love the way Sanderson twists my perspectives sometimes…)
“I promised Tanalan that his widows would weep for what I did here, but that is too merciful for what they’ve done to me.
“I intend to so thoroughly ruin this place that for ten generations, nobody will dare build here for fear of the spirits who will haunt it. We will make a pyre of this city, and there shall be no weeping for its passing, for none will remain to weep.”
AA: Dastardly designs indeed. Well, not exactly dastardly, since that implies cowardice as well as malice, but this escalation is malicious and unwarranted. In my (not-at-all-humble) opinion.
AP: And again worth repeating that we know he’s under the strong influence of an Unmade here, and it shows how powerful that influence is. We know that Dalinar is a well accomplished general, and this is incompatible with the degree of retribution shown here.
Squires & Sidekicks
The elites who accompanied him were the product of years of planning and training. Primarily archers, they wore no armor, and were trained for long-distance running. Horses were magnificent beasts…
For today, however, he didn’t need horses. Men were better suited for long-distance running, not to mention being much better at scrambling over broken hillsides and uneven rocks. This company of elites could outrun any harrying force he’d yet to meet. Though archers, they were proficient with the sword. Their training was unparalleled, and their stamina legendary.
AA: I just wanted to quote this for the record. It’s one of the few glimpses we get into the matured version of the berserker crew Dalinar had begun to pull together back in the first flashback chapter of this book. Back then, it was pretty much “whoever can keep up with me.” Now, they’re highly trained specialists in various areas, so he has different groups to call on for specific situations. It’s pretty impressive, really.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
AA: In the “curses” department, I was amused by this one:
“Stormfather,” one of them said, stumbling back. “Kelek and the Almighty himself!”
AA: Given what a sight Dalinar must have been when he made it back to the camp, I’d say the reaction is probably justified, but the triple callout makes me snicker a little.
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Fate of the Fallen
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
He turned to the side, where Oathbringer protruded from a rock where he’d stabbed it. The … gemstone on the pommel was cracked. That was right. He couldn’t dismiss it; something about the crack had interfered.
AA: I love the casual mention of the gemstone’s importance in bonding a Shardblade. Probably everyone here remembers already, but sometime in the decades after the Recreance, when the worst of the fighting had died down, those who held the Shardblades began to decorate them. On Roshar, the best decorations always involve Stormlight, which means gemstones, so inevitably someone discovered that with a gemstone in place, he could make a Blade so much his own that he could summon and dismiss it at will. Now we learn that damage to the gemstone damages that bond.
Night fell, and he threw off his last piece of Shardplate, leaving only the neck brace. They could regrow the rest of it from that, if they had to.
AA: This might be a weird place for the quotation, but the way my brain is working today, it makes the most sense. Is the neck brace a significant piece from which to regrow the Plate, or is it just the easiest to carry in his current condition? I really would like to know more about the process of regrowing Plate. How do the spren (presumably) decide which part to return to? Is it just the piece that’s got the most Stormlight, or do some pieces have higher priority than others? So many things I want to know…
AP: I think the plate can be regrown from any piece. And a gorget is a pretty easy piece to carry. It’s a consistent weight on the shoulders/neck, and isn’t taking him conscious effort to carry since it’s not impeding his movement like a cracked arm or leg piece.
AA: I’m pretty sure you’re right about that. I couldn’t find the WoB, but I know there’s one about two people using competing pieces of Plate to try to regrow the set, and what would happen. So Dalinar is assuming that his people will regrow his set from the neck piece before anyone finds any of the bits he dropped in the woods and beats him to it. Also, that does make a lot of sense as the piece to keep, when you say it that way.
Quality Quotations
- Momentum. A fight was all about momentum.
AA: Nice callback to the first flashback in Oathbringer!
Well, oof. That was a whole lot of painful. I do apologize for the last-minute change from two chapters to one, but it really was necessary. We’ll be back next week for the battle… and its aftermath. Chapter 76, one of the most agonizing in the book, coming right up.
Alice is enjoying the arrival of what appears to be genuine spring weather. She hopes not to have a Rosharan weather effect and suddenly get winter again.
Aubree is recovering from JordanCon, aka the Ribbon Wars. Can’t wait to do it again next year!
I have a question —
We know that you can’t grow two Shardplate from one (too easy to make lots more Shardplate! Break the Game!) And we have some hints of where Plate comes from, but no certainties.
But what happens, precisely, to the pieces of Plate he left behind? Does the “real” Plate grow back and the other pieces whither away? Or do the pieces disintegrate and return to the “real” Plate as particulate matter on the winds or such? Or do they whither away, but the Plate absorbs similar “matter” from the surroundings, like Soulcasting?
I think we can excuse ourselves for not piecing together that Dalinar seeing red meant magic was happening, given that “seeing red” is a common expression here on Earth.
Which was likely his intent all along.
@1 I believe in WoK someone mentions that when one side “wins” the repairing race, the other bits disintegrate.
I know some people here have stated that this chapter is tough to read because it is difficult to reconscialte the two verions of Dalinar we have. but we got to remeber, this is his past, and for the most part, He doesn’t remember what he does here at all, heck i don’t think he really remembers the rift that much because of Culviation’s pruning. he just knows someting bad happen here, because of it’s conection with Evi. It’s heavily implied that she took the entire burning out probably to make things eaiser and no one mentions it out of respect (or fear). throughout this book, we learn that the Blackthorn was a terrible human being, but there is some indication of the Daliniar that we know and love IS here, he just hasn’t grown yet. Him sparing the boy, his attempts to at least have a decent life with Evi, Adolin in general, There is every indication of the man he grows to be, but sometimes people do terrible things in their lives. the point of these chapters are to show odium’s influence and his bad decioons. it doesn’t mean we have to hate the entire character because of his past because we know he gets better
Since Dalinar had “grabbed Oathbringer and set it on his shoulder”, I think that choosing to keep the bit of Shardplate that protected his neck from the edge of the blade was a pretty rational decision.
Yeah this was definitely the chapter where I got the Sadeas-Dalinar dynamic better and I really like the way you explained your feelings on it here.
Looking forward to one of my favorite little moments soon in chapter 77 with Vathah.
Ah this chapter. I find it is interesting to reach this chapter at about the same time as GoT is being aired as I read quite a few commentaries on the last episodes. To cut a long story short, a handful of characters, within this series, have done terrible deeds and then tries to redeem themselves. A vast majority of comments I have read, on Tor.com, came from readers advocating no actions could ever redeem anyone from hanging two kids and throwing one by a window as those acts were just too awful to be forgiven.
And thus we now reach Dalinar’s crowning moment of glory: the chapter where he decides not one, not two, but thousand (or at the very least a few hundreds) of children deserve to be burned alive to atone for their Highprince’s betrayal. And yeah, he wasn’t alone in this. Sadeas took part in the decision making and certainly was throughout in cutting out all possibilities of retreat, but Sadeas isn’t asking for redemption. He is dead.
So where does this leaves us? Towards examining how important the writing of a character is for the fandom to feel either sympathy or antipathy towards a given character. Dalinar is most certainly written to be “a victim”, to be this great amazing man everyone wishes they were, but has this very small tiny barely visible bump along his road called the Rift. But we aren’t going to hold it against him, I mean, the Thrill, the Alethi war culture, Gavilar, Sadeas, the whole world: even if he admits his guilt (the GoT characters too have admitted their guilt), we can’t really put 100% of the blame on him. And he is such a *great* person now. He is a Radiant, a Bondsmith. Who cares about the nameless children of the Rift?
From my time on the fandom, I’d say it depends who you are talking to. Some care, a lot, some do not care, at all.
Well, I *care*. I care about the fact Dalinar, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the Thrill may or may not have been whispering in his ear, still deliberately chose to torch the Rift. A part of him, a part of him large enough to literally over-ride any dissident thoughts (if he ever had them), who agreed those people, those innocent people had to die within horrible ways (can’t think of a worst death, anyone watch the priest being torched in Outlander, well the Rift was *that* but times several thousands) merely because their Highprince was guilty of betrayal. They weren’t asked for a chance to surrender. The carnage wasn’t limited to the soldiers and Tanalan. No. They had to become examples, the burned examples of what it meant to cross the Blackthorn, to not bow down to King Gavilar.
And it makes me hate Gavilar and Dalinar Kholin. At least, it makes me hate the men they were, at that point in time. Granted, the story unfolds differently later on, Gavilar dies, Dalinar chooses to change and becomes a honorable person, but is it enough?
When it comes to redemption, what is enough and what isn’t? How is it the GoT characters didn’t do enough for many fans, but Dalinar here visibly did? And more importantly, as a reader, can I forgive Dalinar for the Rift? Everyone knows I am struggling with those scenes, with being able to accept Dalinar’s redemption, not knowing if it is *enough*.
If Moash were to try to redeem himself, what would be enough? Would the bar be raised higher than for Dalinar because we hate him at the beginning of the story whereas we like Dalinar at the beginning of his?
On the side note, it was so sad to read Evi’s last moments alive. She wouldn’t step aside, she wouldn’t just take her hole: she had to take action. This woman was built on a rare kind of courage, on the courage to self-sacrifice herself for a greater cause. We don’t know why she ran away from Rira, but it is clear the bargain she got in return was a poor one, just as it is clear here Evi is putting other people’s well-being well above her own. It marks her as one of the most courageous character we have read in SA so far.
@5: But some actions are just too terrible to come back from them, no matter how many glimpses of a good person hides behind the monster. Look within the real-world, a child murderer is unlikely to get much in terms of a second chance, but here we are literally asked to forgive Dalinar for actions we would never forgive anyone living, if it were real-life. That’s what has been bothering me.
Is trying to be honorable now, especially given how privilege Dalinar is within his own society, enough? Is it enough given Dalinar agreed to lose those memories, he had a say in the bargain and he chose to take it?
I don’t know what is enough, but it sure didn’t seem like it were enough when I read OB.
@8 I’m not saying this is good, but for most people it’s just the order that we learned about things. We met nice guy Dalinar before we found out he’d been a monster but we met [GoT character] when he was at pretty much his darkest point. First impressions matter because people hate having to revise our opinions.
I find it interesting that as mentioned Tanalan’s soldiers were Thrill filled too. You definitely feel Odium’s hand in this. Pushing all the pieces together, urging them towards the path he wants. At the end of the day everyone involved still had to choose to take that path, but Odium sure as hell made his way the easier one.
Regarding regrowing shardplate, yep it was confirmed in book you could regrow shardplate from any piece no matter how small. Where it mattered was who started regrowing it first, how big a piece you had to regrow from, and how much stormlight it had to regrow. Whoever had any of those things in greater amount would win the regrowing race, resulting in the other pieces falling apart.
@8 Well for one, we started out with the honorable general Dalinar who follows the codes, and you know, everyone in universe actually hates for going back on something so alethi. Why are you bringing your own morals and social attitude into this, to with the Alethi, it was just business. Every Alethi high lord is basically a tyrant, taking things because they can, Dalinar even says so “we saw the others have this stuff, and we were like, why couldn’t we have all this stuff”.Dalinar agrees that he is a tyrant, but because of their culture, and the way their religion is set up, its not a bad thing to go around pillaging things. He is clearly honorable in some ways, with I think teleb and promising to not have the village he attacked raided and pillaged. With the GoT characters, that characters defining moment was his action in the first episode, and in the books, is something he really doesn’t regret as it was a thing he NEEDED to do, just like his action in the past. and I disagree with you with apparently EVERYONE thinking Dalainar is so perfect. Kadash and the ardentia doesn’t think so. 8 out of 10 High Princes defintley don’t think so, and Sebrarail might just be joining in with him cause…well he’s irreverent and loves to go against the status quo. the entire first two parts of the book was Dalinar having a hell of a time getting one monarch to join him, let alone the Azish, he had to rely on Navani and Jasnah to get them, he just didn’t woo them with his manly solider ways. heck, even kal hated him in the first book because he couldn’t believe he would have such a clean record. Dalinar is not a perfect character, he is complex but the entire series is about accepting your past, and learning from your past and growing from it, to say that to not accept dalinar’s changes that have occurred, both by his own choices, and by Cultivations actions is going against the entire premise of the series. And just one more thing. if dalinar is such a terrible human being, that everything is influenced by his anger and barbaraism, than why does he reject the thrill way back in the first book? that isn’t Cultivation’s influence.
@11: By everyone, I meant the fandom (well the majority of it, one cannot include everyone), not the entirety of Rosharian society. This wasn’t however the point of my argumentation. What is enough? Is it sufficient for the author to tell us this is enough for it feel like it is enough?
Also, my own set of morality remains the mean by which I will evaluate each character’s actions. The in-world morality may explain why the in-world characters aren’t negatively biased against Dalinar, but it isn’t going to make me feel at ease with the actions I have been given to read. The in-world morality isn’t going to change how I, as an individual and a human being, feels about the savage burning of a town filled with civilians. I will not change the fact I, a human being, believe this was an action of pure horror and if I can agree there were mitigations surrounding the event, I cannot, for the life of me, give complete absolution to the man responsible for it on the mere basis of “he is being honorable now”.
And yes, present-day Dalinar is a much better person, I never counter-argued this. My point however was, is it enough to be a “good person” now to atone for the an action as horrific as the burning of the Rift? How many good actions are enough to compensate for the burning of the Rift? The GoT character in question ultimately chooses to change too, to follow his word and to try to regain his honor by fighting for an almost doomed caused as opposed to sit still in relative security in his strong-hold. That however isn’t *enough* for many viewers (I am not saying it is enough for me either, I am just comparing), but Dalinar’s take on honor is deemed *enough* for actions reaching a scope of magnitude in terms of awfulness quite higher than what the GoT character felt he had to do. Dalinar’s justifications also weren’t any better.
The series might choose to have any premises it wants to have, it doesn’t guarantee every single reader will buy into it. Redemption is a big theme and, in the end, it comes down to whether or not it was enough for all readers to believe a given character deserved his redemption.
I agree a majority of readers do believe it was enough for Dalinar. As for myself, I never felt it was *enough*. I don’t know what *enough* will be, I’ll know when I read it, but writing the book is one very big step in the right direction and, within my own frame of morality, *that* was the single biggest step Dalinar ever took.
That may be what will redeem Dalinar to my eyes: not being honorable, not being a Radiant, not rejecting the Thrill, not admitting his guilt, but having the world know the truth when it would be so much easier to keep it a secret. It could be *enough*, depending on how it is being played within RoW.
I know I’m in the minority but… I found Evi incredibly stupid and annoying in this chapter.
If somebody used deceit to kill many of my friends and make a serious try at my life, people would have to hold my wife back from attacking him herself. She’d actually be happy I wasn’t killed and then we’d have a nice talk about how we ought to even the score.
Her lack of reaction to Tanalan tricks and Dalinar’s survival made me wonder if she cared about him even a little.
@8 you bring up good points :) I’m sure in some ways it’s due to how much we can get into a character’s head. I can at least buy Dalinar’s attempts to sever himself from his past. Characters like Theon, for example (in the books, at least) – I never felt had the same kind of self-awareness or contritition.
But yes, Dalinar here is among the lowest of low. A mass murderer/butcher, basically.
Given the distrust of future-telling, I wonder if Evi was given some predilection that “the man you will marry is a killer of thousands. The world will only be saved if you can convince him to stop killing.” She couldn’t tell anyone Vorin because they hate that stuff. She gave him two sons to keep his attention — went right back to murderin’. She begged him for her love to give up the life — kept right on murderin’. She tried to throw herself between him and several thousand people — murdered them from a distance so he couldn’t see her. But she still succeeded, eventually.
Also, my comment about Plate was apparently misread. I know you can only regrow one Plate. The question was, is it the “same Plate” because the pren-like (or whatever) elements return to make it, because we know Plate grows slower until one piece wins. Or does it grab “new parts” to make itself from. In other words, how much of Grandfather’s axe is left?
@13 Black Dread
Interesting point. Although personally I do not find Evi annoying, and I do think she loved Dalinar (I feel she was shocked by how he looked and so didn’t know what to do with herself), I will agree insofar as it was rather naive of her to think a group of people that had just recently deceived her husband in an attempt to kill Dalinar after he had just offered an overture of peace, would welcome her with open arms and listen to what she says despite being the wife of the enemy. They didn’t listen the first time, not sure why she thought they would listen the second time. So I think she was a bit blind by naivete.
@12 and where in this story did Dalniar said, “Hey I tried, that’s enough!” he had an mental breakdown in a quarter of the book when he remember what he does. hell, he had a 5 year breakdown with the drinking and self destruction before he went to Cultivation. the GoT character only had his epiphany after one bad thing happens to him that made him doubt himself and all of his life choices. Dalniar had a bit more time and literal divine intervention on several parts, and to the end where he even admits, “I was at fault. it is my pain.” and which he than goes against cultural norms and learns to write in order to confess said crimes. that’s pretty much all I need to have him redeemed because he has taken every singe step, going through the stages of grief, in order to become a better man.you say , ” not admitting his guilt, but having the world know the truth when it would be so much easier to keep it a secret.” isn’t that what he is doing with the writing of Oathbringer; admitting his guilt. The epigraphs in the first part even goes on to say “I did something terrible and if you continue reading, you will witness my sins” he is basically saying he is going to talk about the Rift. its also the third book in a multi book series, you can’t jus say, “oh he was a asshole in the past, I can’t root for him anymore!” when he defintley has made strides. He’s not Moarash, whose entire catchphrase right now is ‘its not my fault, its my species I am the way God made me” Dalinar is literally going “I agree. I made huge terrible mistakes. the next step is the next one, to continue going forward.” that’s the entire message in the book! I don’t understand how you can say that Dalinar hasn’t learned a single lesson when that was his entire journey here, a journey not over yet by the way.
@14: Good points.
I would however argue Theon’s narrative in the book isn’t completed yet. At the end of the last book, he had barely acknowledged his loyalty lied with the Starks as opposed to the Greyjoy: his break-down in the Godswood or next to Ned Stark tomb are scenes the TV show never captured. They serve to show us how far he has fallen and where he chooses to turn himself to when in a time of need: the Old God. It ends with Theon having barely caught enough grisps with himself to save Jeyne Pole from Winterfell. We don’t know where his character will go within the books nor if he’ll survive for much longer.
He hasn’t redeemed himself yet, in the books, he barely started trying to *perhaps* redeem himself. And it won’t be easy, I noticed fans tend to hate more on book Theon than on TV show Theon. Maybe this has to do with Alfie Allen fabulous acting. Or the slight changes they made to his arc in the TV show.
As for Dalinar, I understand he wants to cut the ties with his past and be allowed to grow into another man, a better man. His story however will not be complete until he finishes his book. To my eyes, writing the book is the single most courageous think Dalinar ever did, providing he has other people read it. And that could be his redemption, at least for me.
Teleb’s prominence in the flashbacks really made me start to suspect him, but it seems he was loyal after all. At the end of it, I think the point with Teleb was that it showed how Dalinar recruited– through coercion. Teleb did end up staying loyal, but maybe it’s not so remarkable that others under Dalinar’s command did not. I think Dalinar has the typical Lighteye-in-charge assumption that once he makes himself in charge, loyalty is simply his. But being given authority out of fear isn’t the same as being given authority out of respect.
I think its important to note how much the thrill colored Dalinars decision here, and how Sadeas helped feed into it also. Sadeas didn’t have the thrill raging in him, and he knew how easy it was to influence Dalinar in this state. Sadeas didn’t have to kill literally everybody who attempted to escape, and once Dalinar wakes up from the thrill he realizes what is happening, he never would have agreed to go that far without both the thrill and Sadeas. yes it Dalinar made a conscious choice, but it was also a very heavily influenced choice, one that actually goes against his character. Sadeas though didn’t have the heavy hand of the thrill, at least to Dalinars extent, and willingly suggested parts of the plan and went along with it to the end. That is why i can forgive Dalinar for this, because he is immediately remorseful and wants to atone for what he did, not because it makes him feel bad, but because it was wrong and he knows that it was.
@12, Gepeto
I mean, it’s all sort of a rhetorical question. If we had met any of the other people killed in the fire, “forgiveness” wouldn’t come so easily to some people, but we only have Evi – and that’s a an arm’s distance. Redemption is, of course, deeply personal. I personally don’t know if Dalinar can ever redeem himself, he’s at least trying to atone for it. That’s half the battle. He’s never going to be able to atone in one gesture – no matter how dramatic. It’s always going to be small steps, about doing the right things this time. He can’t do anymore than that right now. Maybe he never redeems himself, maybe he takes the place of the Heralds, maybe he ends up becoming Honor and this moment defines his approach to humanity, much like Sazed’s journey in Mistborn. People like atonement. And the more personal it is, the “better.” See Wayne or Kelsier. Do you see Dalinar’s behavior as fake? I think it kind of is and isn’t, but that fact that in this book he acknowledges it all anyway, can only mean that it’s a good thing. And considering that we are inside the characters, we know that intent matters – especially as a Radiant.
As for GoT, I don’t think the situations are that comparable. Personal honor is a very different prospect from honor in war. Moash is the better example – betrayed his friends and fought for other side. And it’s very likely that he comes back to the fold at the end. He’s on the same path.
Personally I am looking forward to the reading of chapter 76. We get to see a lot of hints of the honorable man Dalinar will someday become. Blink and you will miss them, but they definitely are there. Also of note, when Dalinar went to Cultivation, he did not ask to forget the Rift nor Evi. He asked for forgiveness. Cultivation is the one that decided how that would manifest.
@19 Actualy, that is a good point, especially since Sanderson shown Teleb’s recruitment, it could have been a interesting reveal that he did resent Dalinar for the forced recruitment and everything else, but stuck by him, hoping he would never find out. Too bad he died in the previous book so it can’t go anywhere. Teleb is one of those characters that could have had a lot more, since there are hints and teases to his background.
@Gepeto, et al: One of the things I took from Oathbringer was that abstract questions of redeemability are for after the world is saved. Dalinar, Szeth, and Venli, people with staggering amounts of blood on their hands, can become Knight Radiants– not because they deserve to, not because all is forgiven, but because all hands are needed on deck to fight Odium, and they’re in positions where their magic powers will have great effect. Moash could come crawling back on his hands and knees with Taravangian as his squire, and the ghosts of Sadeas and Amaram as his bondspren, and he’d be let back in, because doing so would deprive Odium of a powerful tool. It’s not fair, really, but war’s not fair either.
Gepeto, there’s one thing you’re missing. Brandon is a believer in the applicability over allegory of art. If you believe that Dalinar is irredeemable that is a perfectly valid interpretation of the story. Just because Evi forgives him doesn’t mean YOU have to.
It’s crazy how even in his darkest moments Dalinar still manages to look like a bad ass mofo. The survival of the ambush and the march alone back to his army comes straight from the hero playbook. Take away the red eyed imagery and you could plop it into many a fantasy novel. Read it with no context and you immediately could point and say, “well that guy is obviously the hero in this book”. Brandon is playing with us in this regard. He is giving Dalinar hero beats even when he’s at his most villainous. Conversely, when he’s doing the right thing everyone in his world looks upon him as if he were an asshole.
Redemption isn’t trying to make up for the horrible things you did in the past. There are no karmic scales of balance that say if you do enough good it will erase the stain on your soul from the bad things you’ve done. What’s past is passed, and there’s nothing you can do to change that. What you do in the past matters, but what also matters is what you do in the present. It’s one thing to look to the past and thing “I am a monster, and that is all I will ever be, so there’s no use trying to change that.” It’s another to look to the past and say “I was a monster, and some people will always see me as that monster, but I don’t have to continue being that monster.”
And just because good deeds in the present can’t erase bad deeds in the past, it doesn’t mean there’s no merit in doing them. They’re still, you know, good deeds.
Unrelated, but: Can we please stop talking about Game of Thrones? That’s a different reread. :)
Related: I forgive Dalinar. I know that plenty of people won’t.
To me, it doesn’t matter why he made the choice he made. It’s done, it’s past. Whether or not he’s to blame, the blood is on his hands. But he doesn’t just shrug it off and go on. He realises. It becomes the catalyst in his change.
For a long time, he didn’t acknowledge his responsibility because Cultivation made him forget it. He has a redemption arc sketched out for him by a god. For me, all that matters is that he honestly and genuinely tries to be a better person. (Not doing anything by halves, he’s kinda overdoing that, but… it counts.)
I find it easier to apply that sort of judgement to book characters because I can understand their motivations and tell if they are genuine. In real life, that’s a lot more difficult, and I tend to cut people out of my life rather remorselessly if they’re incompatible (means: if they don’t try).
Dalinar tries.
It’s fair game to bring up other works of literature or media when the themes have applicability. Also, the last major reference was in comment 18, with a short reply in comment 21, so it’s hardly dominating the discussion.
That said I think it is reasonable to request people aren’t spoiling things if they are following the show (for example, I still have not seen Endgame so… ;) )
@30 Heh, to be fair, we were avoiding names, besides theon, but I will dial down on em.
but I absoulty agree with @29. He’s trying, and really, isn’t that all we can ask? through out the story he doesn’t deny his issues, the only denial is when he can’t remember, and that’s because of a calculated pruning and to return by a divinity that views time different than we do.
I always have such mixed reactions to these chapters. (How do you stop at that chapter break!?) On rereads especially seeing the Thrill so present and pushing Dalinar on is truly terrifying. It’s not a surprise that he does something so incredibly over the top in retribution. As to whether there was healing going on from the Thrill, I’m pretty sure there is. Back in WoR (or maybe WoK?) there is some discussion on exactly how Dalinar is able to function normally with all the battle injuries/scars that he’s got. The answer is that the Thrill took good care of it’s favorite pet human, preparing him for greater atrocities. At this point I don’t think Dalinar is even able to get out on his own, with the addiction to the Thrill that he has. That’s not a total excuse, as has already been mentioned. But it’s hard to hold Dalinar completely responsible for the things he does. Of course, to be free of the Thrill and Odium that’s what he has to do but he has come a long way since the rift.
As for Evi, I have had a large amount of pity for her for a long time. Her shock and horror at the sight of her husband (possibly with some red in his eyes) isn’t abnormal, even for the life he has had. I wish someone had stopped her from going to Tanalan. But her dedication to a life outlook so different from the culture she was living in is heroic
Hmm… the oil has not been thrown into the fire yet, but the discussion is hot anyway.
@Gepeto:
I have to disagree.
I do not stand at heaven’s gate and evaluate, who may pass and who must not. And if I was there, I would certainly convert to Christianity and remember Judge not, that ye be not judged.
You write
That is wrong. Dalinar is not written as a victim:
The whole scence would not make any sense, if Dalinar was a written as a victim.
I cannot say anything on Your conparison with Theon Greyjoy, because I I refuse to view the series as long as certain books are not finished. I am miffed and that’s that. But if I remember this books correcty, redemption is not even dreamed of as a theme, it is the fanbase, that worries about.
It is though a major theme of SA. But I think, if we could ask Dalinar, if he is redeemed, he would flatly answer no. He can only strive and that he does.
Concerning actual redemption LazerWulf has already expressed it better than I could.
And redemption has to tempered with practicality – morality and practicality have to stay in equilibrium. (Something I very much like.):
“Maybe you’re right, and I am a tyrant! Maybe letting my armies into your city is a terrible risk. But maybe you don’t have good options! Maybe all the good men are dead, so all you have is me!
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer (The Stormlight Archive) (S.357-358). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version.
Another point to disagree:
Sorry it is war we are talking about. Millions of child murderers are getting this second chance, just now, because that is what war is about. Of course in the abstract we will never forgive them (me neither). But if we are confronted with real people, who were in a war 30 years ago, are You all that sure?
@26 EvilMonkey
Totally agree with You here. I think, that is the reason, why fans try to exonerate Dalinar, though it goes against the grain of the story. All those other badass fantasy slayer get tainted by association.
@32, knuti:
Exactly! I don’t think he will ever feel as if he’s redeemed. I can’t see that for him right now. Maybe if his deal with Cultivation cashes out, maybe he can accept that. But honestly, I think he’ll insist on carrying this to the grave, and that’s why I’m willing to treat his slate as clean.
He’s not about to go and torch a city ever again.
@GOT: I’m up-to-date thanks to spoilers in my facebook timeline, but honestly, with blanked out character names it’s even more annoying to read because I honestly have no clue. Also waiting for the book. :D
@8: I agree that Dalinar’s actions at the Rift were far worse than anything Moash has done, and I still love his redemption arc. I would be happy to see one for Moash as well. Venli, who destroyed her entire people out of selfish ambition…I have more trouble with that one, emotionally – I don’t like her as a character – but I don’t diasagree with it in principle.
Regarding the characters you mention in GOT, or rather ASOIAF – I don’t really oppose their arcs, but my difficulty with them is that the characters (in the books) don’t really grapple with what they’ve done the way Dalinar does by the end of Oathbringer. Theon’s not repentant so much as just plain broken, and Jaime’s still justifying himself to himself (with regards to Riverrun and other matters) and seeing himself as the aggrieved party.
Alice & Aubree: I think the red mist he sees in the corner of his vision are the Voidspren still trapped on Braize. They are not strong enough to fully brake through the physical realm (from the cognitive). That is why they come and go.
I wonder if Dalinar had an Alethi wife who did not so visibly show grief, would Dalinar have sent her out of the war tent? I tend to doubt it.
Knowing what I do about Sadeas in the current timeline, I have a suspicion that Sadeas was truly behind the plan to eliminate Dalinar. I think he would try to play both sides.
Alice. I thought we learned in WoR that if you damage the gemstone, you affect the bond. I believe that during one of his duels, Adolin crushes the gemstone to break the bond between Shardblade and bearer of that Shard. I could be wrong, however.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think Brandon is writing a fantasy novel that makes us think about these terrible concepts. It is very easy to think in black and white, good vs. evil, so many fantasy books never get past that. Dalinar has the added disadvantage and advantage of being god ridden. He did try to rescind his orders but Sadeous made that impossible.
Lisamarie @30. Wait. Avengers Endgame is out in the theaters? Since when? I was so obsessed with GoT that nothing else existed
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Blurg. I skipped rereading these. Neragoul: my least-favorite Unmade.
@21: This is a point I made several weeks ago, how the fact Dalinar’s victims were mostly nameless does help readers forgive him more easily. At the time, I compared how Dalinar’s character was being received versus other characters such as Amaram, Roshone and also Moash. Roshone gets very strongly hated for his decision to send Tien to the army. One boy. Even if he were to try to atone himself, it may be readers would still not buy it. Because he caused Tien’s death. At the time, I asked, what if Tien had been one of the children at the Rift? How would this have influenced readers opinion?
You ask if I believe Dalinar is acting fake. I do not. I believe he is sincere in his attempts to do better, I do believe his desire to take on the task to protect the world from the Desolation is genuine and selfless.
The question would thus be where do each reader draw their own personal line. It doesn’t help lunchtime discussion accidentally roam around the topic of the SS within WW2 completed with nice Internet links showing great pictures of dead people. And a list of deeds which include the execution of villages. Many villages. Pure happenstance and not a topic I had chosen, but still… hard to come back from this and feel Dalinar deserves to leave the past behind without many consequences.
@24: Great commentary. I agree now is not the time to waste energy figuring it out who deserves to be there and who doesn’t. Being a Radiant isn’t about deserving it on a morality point of view, it merely is about catching the interest from a spren who isn’t thinking about the big picture. Still, Team Human is better off with Dalinar within its ranks: I will not deny this.
It is just from a human point of view, my human point of view, the Rift just isn’t an event I can leave in the past. I wish the people who were unjustly killed there got to have their revenge, got to see justice being held down even if they are no longer alive. It is just… that wasn’t right.
I will, however, state it makes up for a good story. That much is a given.
@25: Ah good point. I do not believe Dalinar is unredeemable. I believe he might not have reached the place where I can forgive him, but I am not rejecting the possibility he might reach it. I am hoping his book is what will do it, for me as a reader.
@26: OK. Now my brain has linked young Dalinar with Rambo and Silverstone Stalone. The imagery will not go away :-O
@29: There was a connect discussion on the topic of redemption which happened a few days ago. I thought it was thematically appropriate to refer to it here.
@33: Dalinar, the character, certainly doesn’t think he is a victim. What I meant is the narrative, the way it has been written, by the scenes, the moments, the chronology it chose is sending a vibe wanting Dalinar not to have been fully responsible for the events at hand. Thus, a victim. And there were some readers who argued along those lines which is why I brought it forward. Granted, I might have pushed it a tad too far. Point taken.
My problem never was on how Dalinar was viewing himself, he is extremely lucid on what he has done and what it means, it is more questioning as to why he gets along so easily within this fandom whereas other characters get it much harder elsewhere.
@35: My questioning with Moash is, given how hated he currently is, what would be the threshold for the readers to believe and enjoy a potential redemption for him.
I you kill one person, you are a murderer. If you kill thousands, you are a (war) hero. The Alethi are not the only culture where the Dalinars are seen as the heroes, not the Evis. Why is it OK if the heroes kill, but if the villains to the same thing that shows how evil they are? In most stories Dalinar would be the evil warlord the heroes fight.
@AndrewHB
I thought we learned in WoR that if you damage the gemstone, you affect the bond. I believe that during one of his duels, Adolin crushes the gemstone to break the bond between Shardblade and bearer of that Shard. I could be wrong, however.
I, on the other hand, remember that Adolin thought that crushing the gemstone would not have been necessary, but serves as a nice symbol. I also remember a WoB that says one cannot break a bond to a Blade by damaging the gemstone. A damaged gemstone only seems to mess with dismissing and summoning the blade. But I might misremember. I have to go hunting for that WoB when I have a bit more time.
For my personal stance, not necessarily shared by the fandom, I find Dalinar to be much more palatable even with the Rift taking the shine off his apple in a big way for 2 reasons. One, the Amaram principle. One thing that’s the same between the Blackthorn and the Bondsmith is that there was never any subterfuge, no double talk. Dalinar has always been genuine, for better and worse, no matter what others thought of him. Contrast that with Amaram who was a snake with a pretty reputation. Amaram could have never stood up to the type of scrutiny that Dalinar has had to endure for his entire life, not without making excuses or trying to hide the filth on his soul. Whether you like Dalinar or not, he has never made an excuse for his behavior and has never let others make excuses for him either. That deserves at the very least some respect.
The second is the Sadeas/Moash principle. If you’ve read many of my posts then you know I have a thing about betrayal. It’s a personal pet peeve of mine. I’m less inclined to give a character the benefit of doubt if they are a betrayer. Dalinar doesn’t waste time betraying anyone. The closest he came was killing his guys on the battlefield while deep in the Thrill. He didn’t betray Evi; she knew the man he was when she met him. He fought the Thrill tooth and nail so that he wouldn’t murder his brother, even though Gavilar took from him and married the woman he loved. This is a sharp contrast from the likes of Sadeas and Moash, people who betrayed people who saved their lives.
@41: Yes. I agree. I bought it up several weeks back when I mentioned how, within many other stories, Tanalan would have been the rightful hero and Dalinar the brutal antagonist. I pointed out quite a few times the Kholins of old (by this I mean Gavilar/Dalinar during those past years, not the present-day Kholins) were the bad guys, but since we read the story from their point-of-view, we tend to view them as the good ones.
Except nothing they do is actually heroic nor even good. I am currently reading the Faithfull and the Fallen (I don’t know if anyone else read it, I am having a lot of fun with it right now) and the Gavilar/Dalinar duo of old is highly reminiscient of the Nathair/Veradis one. The first believes he is rightful in his desire to united the Banished Lands, but since no other rulers will readlily follow his leaad, he conquers them and kills those who would oppose him. The second is the blind follower who gave his oath to the first and will do whatever is asked of him without bothering to think whether it is a good thing or not. Veradis doesn’t want to care about politics, he hates it and he only wants to be a soldier. He is content in being told what to do and in leaving Nathair make the decision making.
This whole dynamic made me think of how Gavilar and Dalinar conquered Alethar. The first one was convinced he was rightful in his desire to unite Alethkar. The other Highprinces wouldn’t readily bow down to him and crown him King, so he conquered them and he killed all of those who would oppose him. Dalinar is the blind follower ready to do whatever his brother asked him to do without caring whether it was a good thing or not. He hated politics and only wanted to be soldering.
In the first story, there is no doubt Nathair is the antagonist, though he never thought of himself as one. In our story, the Kholins are presented as our protagonists, but their actions are those of antagonists even if they never thought they were ones (though Dalinar does have this reflection in WoR). Dalinar may be the main protagonist of SA (or one of the main protagonists), his younger self very much was an antagonist by both his actions and his attitude.
It is fascinating how having readers meet Dalinar as an older honorable man teints those past actions and make them somewhat better, more acceptable than if we had read the exact same narrative, but written in a different context.
@42: I remember the same. Breaking the gemstone doesn’t break the bond, but it prevents the summoning/dismissing of the Blade as we observed within this chapter with Dalinar and Oathbringer.
An argument could be made that bad deeds meriting justice or prompting redemption is the single most common story ever told. No spoilers for movies or books that have come out in the past year, I promise.
– How much does Dalinar need to do to make up for the Blackthorn days? Moash for his betrayal? What would it take for us to root for big T, or Sadeas, or Amaram?
– Theon? Jaime? Arya? Robert Baratheon? Voldemort? Snape? Dumbledore? Judas? Benedict Arnold? Ironman? Black Widow?
Books are by definition linear. We read one part before the next. I find it fascinating how frequently authors are able to play with gray characters simply by timing and perspective. How differently would we feel about Dalinar if we had read the Blackthorn and Rift pages first, and then later saw him as the Cultivated Dalinar, giving a priceless object to free slaves? How differently would we feel about Moash if he was the viewpoint character of WoK, with flashbacks to what happened to his grandparents? How differently would we feel about Snape if we saw him being bullied by the Marauders first, and then later as the glum potions master? Judas was an apostle, Benedict Arnold an American hero. Ironman an arms dealer, Black Widow an assassin. Pure evil is exceptionally rare in life, and boring in fiction.
The Good Place puts directly in to numbers the value of each good and bad deed, thought, word. We all have actions we regret and those we are proud of, and we individually know how much one influences the other. Fiction reflects life – we all hope that redemption is possible, we all hope that there’s someone more villainous than us that we can say, “well at least I’m not that person. If I fight to bring them down, it will make up for my past mistakes.”
@36/@42: Adolin doesn’t crush the gemstone until after the bond is broken. It’s mostly a symbolic gesture at that point.
@45: Oh yes, that was a great response. How would we feel towards Moash had he been the main protagonist? How would we feel towards him had we read the events surrounding the unfair arrestment, imprisonment and death of his grand-parents? What about if we’d read Moash, a citizen of the second dahn, being looked down, laughed at and deemed “too arrogant” for his station by others? What if we had seen him being put back to his place by petty lighteyes?
Aren’t we all angry at Roshone for what he did to Tien? Don’t we all feel Kaladin’s anger towards the ruling class is justified given what he has witnessed and lived through? What if Moash were our main protagonist? What if we read the story solely from Moash’s perspective and all we saw of Elhokar were the spoiled temperamental childish king who got innocent people killed out of boredom or lack of will? What if the story was written to make us doubt the Kholin dynasty is actually a good thing?
And to go back to the questions I raised many weeks ago, what if Tanalan had been the main protagonist and not Dalinar? He’d be fighting the conquerers, the men who invaded his homeland, killed his father, stole his heirloom, but expects him to be grateful because they spared him. He’d be fighting to free his people from tyrans. He’d be trying to take down a man viewed as nothing more than barbarous monster.
A story depends on where we are looking at it and in SA, we are looking at it from Dalinar’s viewpoint, but how much of his redemption would be buy hadn’t he been the protagonist? Would so many readers still like him or would they treat him the same way they treat Theon or Jaime in GoT?
What would it take for me, specifically, to accept Dalinar’s redemption? I would need to see Dalinar face the external consequences of his actions (more than having a handful of foreign monarchs not being too keen to side with him) and to try to repair them. So far, the event has been solely broached from Dalinar’s perspective, the emphasis being put on his pain, his guilt and what it did to him. As an individual, I am far more interested in seeing how this played out on other people, in seeing the truth shifts other characters perception of Dalinar than reading how Dalinar internally deals with it.
So, random example being tossed here and definitely not something I expect to read, but we are talking of the “what would it take”, if Dalinar were to lose Adolin because of what he did at the Rift and then had to work hard to gain back his son’s loyalty and trust, I’d be satisfied. A real tangible external consequences which would have Dalinar face the facts his actions have consequences on other people besides killing them. Something deeply personal too and yet external.
on the topic of moash, may the fleas of a thousand camels infest his armpits, we only hear that his grandparents died in prison, and that the prison environment is what killed them, my question is, what was the prison actually like? the one time we see a prison, its when Kaladin goes to prison, so we see his cell, the deepest and least opulent in all the warcamp, and we see Adolins cell, a rather plush arrangement. what were the prisons like in kolinar for 2nd dahn darkeyes? will we find out? what if it turns out they were treated fairly well while in prison and died of something like a heart attack, unrelated to being in jail? and @43 i agree, betrayal is a rather hard thing to overcome, to me the redemption he can get is self sacrifice in service to bridge four.
@47 Except wouldn’t Dalinar’s pain, his regret and his view be kind of important of HIS redemption? while the villages he’s slaughtered would have been nice tro have a viewpoint of them, all of the other examples that you have talked about we have seen their response. THey are NOT remorseful. Moarsh blames society and lighteyes for everything, refusing to even take responsibility. Amaran is the same way. one of his last lines to Dalinar was “I would not be able to forgive myself”, showing that while he may feel remorse….hes so far gone that he isn’t even trying to seek redemption. Talanalan led Dalinar in a death trap, despite his overtures to surrender peacefully. that would be like Kaladin seeking revenge on…well Elhokar, which was breaking oaths. Even Dalinar’s anger infested line here was “they need to pay for broken oaths” With Rashone, he comes off as a nasty man, who clearly is seeking to blame others for his punishment, look at the way he blames Lirian for it and even told laral that Liran was the blame. MAYBE he will finally take responsibility for the town now that Kal stopped over, but that’s a wait and see moment.
The readers have seen Dalinar’s journey first in the first two books than later in his past, so that’s why we are reasoning to support him, because we DO see the good man he will become, even if there are hints of it. and buried in the violence. Jaime and Theon don’t have that luxuray, and from what we see of the other characters you mentioned, their actions for their responsilbiities are way different than Dalinar. Daliniar made the stride to be better, none of the other characters have or tried.Amaran is the one who tries to justify his actions with weak platitudes “oh I am saving the world, sacrafices need to be made” not dalinar.
@49: Feeling guilty about one’s actions doesn’t erase the fact the deed was done. Dalinar may feel all the guilt in the world, the reality is he never was punished for what essentially is a war crime. He got away with it.
For me, and I will speak solely from my personal’s perspective, guilt is irrelevent in the absence of external consequences to one’s person. Consequences which comes outside the culprit, say disownment, imprisonment, loss of wealth and status, loss of family, it can take many forms, but as long as Dalinar isn’t having external consequences, his guilt will not be enough. In other words, I care more about Dalinar facing retribution than how he feels about it. Guilt is why he is able to be redeemed, but retribution is what makes the pill go down the throat, the knowledge some sort of justice was made, the knowledge those people didn’t just die so Dalinar could become a Radiant. It is what makes it *acceptable* on a morality point of view, on my morality point of view.
In the other examples, their story didn’t move forward enough. Had Roshone try to atone for his crimes after having been sent in a small town and lost his son, yeah, I’d buy it (now that didn’t happen, I am just figuratively speaking). Had Amaram gone through his trial, done his mea culpa, been given a sentence befitting his actions, then yeah, I’d buy it. But Dalinar… He is above the law. He is untouchable. And in the end, what consequences did he suffer for his actions besides a bout of self-pitying? Are his family members thinking less of him? No. Has he lost his status? No. Has he lost a great deal lot of money? No. He lost his wife, but he never really loved nor cared much for her, so that’s not…. enough.
Besides having his moment of “This is terrible, I am suffering”, which lasting consequences is he having? The knowledge he has done what he has done? I don’t find this is *enough*. I do not find guilt to be *enough*. It is a beginning, it is needed, but just by itself, I do not find it enough.
In the case of GoT, Jaime and Theon suffered consequences for their actions. They weren’t above the low. Depending which actions they choose to take next, I am satisfied there were consequences for the choices they have made. Now they have paid the price, they can move forward, shall they choose to.
I do not expect anyone to share my views nor to agree. In fact, I expect more people to disagree than to agree.
Except the law is clearly flawed, especially since, when your brother IS the law, and that everyone thinks he basically just urpsuped Elokar’s throne. what’s more important, your soul and the guilt it weighs on you, or superficial laws that can easily change when the person in power changes constantly? Dalinar already had a huge problem with the rest of the monarchs, his “equals” outright denying him, the church itself claiming him heretic. its clear that to htem, the Rift was a grevious trial of just being at war. Sadeas and Galivar obvosuly approved of it, and even Kadash mostly went tot he ardentia because of how horrible it was but he clearly doesn’t blame Daliniar for it entirely. Also, I call bull that he “didn’t care enough about her or loved her” if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have tried to talk to tavalan in the first place. he would have ignored her entirely. he DID care about her, half of his thoughts was ” I don’t deserve her” and if he didn’t care about her, why go on a drunk spree for years, hating everyone including himself, and going to the nightmother, not to ask to forget about her, but for forgiveness. Remember, it was Cultivation that erased his memories, he didn’t ask for to forget everything because he didn’t care, he clearly did.
@47
Picking this out, because if Kaladin in WoR had followed through with his desire to sneak into Sadeas’s warcamp and murder Amaram, I would have hated it. Not because Amaram didn’t deserve it, but because Kaladin’s desire for revenge was harming him (everyone knows you can’t multi-class Paladin and Assassin, right?), and harming the people around him that depended on him, like Bridge Four and Syl. I think if Moash had been a protagonist he would have been an Antihero leaving a wake of harm and destruction as he trampled his friends and allies in pursuit of revenge. More a tragic tale than a heroic one.
On the other hand, Gepeto, I think I do agree with you on consequences. That’s one of the things that bothers me about redemption arcs, once someone decides to be a better person, the only reason the harm they caused seems to matter to the story is because it causes them angst.
Part of the problem for me is that there are just too many characters who are getting redemption arcs for massive acts of cruelty and death. Dalinar for Rathalas, Szeth for being a serial mass-murderer, and Venli for wiping out her own people in pursuit of power. If their crimes won’t matter except for being a motive for them to change, it does make me wonder if I am supposed to care about all the “lesser” actions of all the characters. For example, does it matter that Adolin stabbed Sadeas through the eye, or does it only matter if Adolin is sorry for stabbing Saseas through the eye (he’s not)?
@52 Except the consquences of him regretting everything is right there in the narrative. Heck,there is clearly consequences for his actions as a warlord with the monarchs not easily trusting him. I also have just reread the next part….Dalinar actually tried to call it off half way through. He felt it was enough, and it was our good old friend Sadeas who basically said “oh I ordered the troops to kill all survivors!” Heck Dalniar urged the thrill down so he wouldn’t enjoy the massacre, proof that it was his choice to do it, and not soley on Odium’s but one where regret came instantly. he knew it was a terrible thing to do and instantly regretted it.
Gepeteo, I also noticed something, how come it is not ok to really forgive Dalniar just yet, when it is ok for Adolin to outright murder a man, even if it was Sadeas? Heck Adolin felt less guilt about the murder than Daliniar did for the rift, his only concern was what his father would think about him, and there’s no consequence of him once he does admit it, so how come dalniar must basically suffer everything including his son outright hating him, but not his son for his own ruthless deed?
If Evi hadn’t been in the Rift when he burned it, how might his feelings about it have been different? I haven’t reread the chapter with the burning to see what he was like before he learned of her death, or his subsequent chapters of guilt and grief, so that’s a probably a disscussion for later, but I’m already wondering. I think Dalinar would likely have lost her in any case; I can see her committing suicide or running away rather than living with a husband who had done that atrocity. But if she accepted it like the Alethi did, or hadn’t been in the picture at all (if he had attempted to offer peace for some other reason), how would he feel about this act of war that killed multitudes of strangers?
@54 AeronaGreenjoy
It will come up next week in the next chapter, but Dalinar felt overwhelmed before he even knew Evi was among those that died. Also much like Szeth, he would hear never ending screaming from multiple voices. It was not just his wife. So I believe we can reason from the information at hand that Dalinar would have been just as affected by the Rift had Evi not also died, but it was especially poignant because of her loss as well.
edit: actually kind of thinking things through, since Dalinar felt overwhelmed and that the rift went too far, I could see Evi being there for him, like when he spared Tanalan Jr. Helping him heal and change.
@54 I just read ahead a little, so I don’t know if we should discuss it here, since you know, its going to be around for next week. but….he ordered the survivors a escape route after a time. I don’t know if we should go ahead because the discussion is next week. man, I know they got busy but I wished they did the two parter! there’ss so much to talk about here
Thank you. Sorry. I’ll wait
@51: A few weeks back, I spoke of how it was possible to read the narrative and to determine Dalinar loves Evi just as it was possible to read the exact same wording and conclude he didn’t. Both interpretations of the narrative are valid, none have been confirmed, and I suspect Brandon prefers to leave it open.
Having read Unfettered II, my interpretation of the narrative remains Dalinar did not love Evi. He didn’t wish her dead, but he did not love her nor did he ever miss her once she was gone (he says so within his next flashback chapter or the one after). He tried the peacefull approach not because he cared nor loved Evi, more because he felt guilty towards not being the husband he believed she deserved. He was trying to please her, but trying to please someone doesn’t equate love. You do not need to love someone to feel guilt when you kill them. None of this narrative indicate love, it however indicate Dalinar agrees he has done a… terrible thing. He want to be forgiven, but has he paid the price? Within SA, the price to pay is either non-existent or terribly low, whenever a character does something bad. Any character.
So while I will not try to change anyone’s perspective on whether or not Dalinar loved Evi, mine remains he didn’t. He never did. I don’t read “love” within their interactions. I never did. Yes, he feels guilty for what happened, yes, he rightly blames himself, but again, this isn’t what I refer too as an external consequences existing to condemn actions.
The price paid for the burning of the Rift (a few years spent drinking alcohol he never had to pay inside a luxurious palace while neglecting sons who never thought much of it) hasn’t been high enough. For me, it isn’t enough. I respect it is enough for most readers, but from my own morality frame, this isn’t nowhere near enough.
I also disagree the Alethi nation was totally fine with Dalinar burning the Rift. If it were fine, then Gavilar wouldn’t have needed to lie. He wouldn’t have said it was an “accident” nor that “Sadeas was accidentally responsible”. Why hide the fact it was Dalinar’s decision all along? Why is it Adolin believes his father took no part in the event? Why the lie? They didn’t need to lie about who lighted the fire to savekeep Evi’s reputation, but they did. Why?
Because having the Blackthorn burn a town filled with civilians wouldn’t have gone down well within the kingdom. So they lied.
A consequences do not have to be in-line with the law. Jaime and Theon both paid a price for their actions and it had nothing to do with applying any known law: it was retribution for past deeds. Mind, I would never condone such actions within real-life, but within the scope of fantasy, it was enough.
I’ll conclude in saying Dalinar cared he was responsible for Evi’s unfair death, that doesn’t mean he cared for her as a human being nor that he loved her. You’d have to be a psychopath not to care about someone you had a hand in killing, Dalinar isn’t one, but I still maintain, based on my interpretation, he never loved Evi. Her absence certainly isn’t a consequences as he never missed her. He never missed hanging out with her, talking to her, being with her. When you love someone, that’s what you miss, the other person.
@52: Good point on Kaladin. I might not have liked it either.
And yes on consequences: you said in a few words what I have been trying to explain in a lot more words. Redemption for the sake of writing an emotional trauma for a given character leaves me wanting: it can never be complete unless the character in question has retribution for his actions.
Good point in bringing the high number of redemption arcs for characters having done bad things without much consequences other than an inner monologue. If Moash gets one, then it will be one more.
On Adolin, I tried not to mention him because I try to mention Adolin as seldom as I can humanly manage, I noticed readers tend to be harder on him than they are on Dalinar. I do think you are right in saying the fact he isn’t sorry actually accounts for most of it.
This being said, on a human point of view, my point of view, I want actions such as the Rift to matter, to be called out for what they were and yes, I also want Adolin’s action to receive consequences. He did murder a man. And he did get away with it completely clean of consequences. That annoyed me.
@53: Dalinar ordered Sadeas to make sure no one would escape. Sadeas did just that. I consider this one is still on Dalinar: he’s the one who made the call. Sadeas obeyed. Sure, he could have thought this wasn’t very nice and disobeyed, but it probably suited him just fine.
I try not bring Adolin within the discussions because it has caused issues when I did, before. I have repetetily said I wasn’t OK with Adolin murdering Sadeas. So everything I have said also applies to him, even if he is my favorite character.
So yes, I want Adolin to face external consequences. I wanted this for OB. It didn’t happen.
@54: Very good question. I dare not answer. I let others do it.
@85 No, Sadeas had a broad interpertaion of that order. The order was to stop the envoys. Sadeas just put some mutual liberty on the order to NO one escaping, seeing that Dalinar even said, “let them go” later on, and Sadeas said ‘oh, too late, I was following your previous order! and Galivar isn’t the one who said it was a accident. Dalinar did. Dalinar realized the truth of why Evi was down there, while his advisors were trying to pin her as a traitor. he couldn’t stand the guilt, and he even has a line where he spent years training his troops to not attack and pillage villages anymore, and than have them do this terrible thing. it would be beter for moral to have them think she was assassinated. and no, I still think he cared for her in a way. He did too many things to try to change even if they failed. If he didn’t care, he wouldn’t have even thought what she thought of him, but that was half of his thoughts, that he was unworthy of her, that she deserved better. a man who doesn’t care about someone doesn’t care what they think of him.
didnt Sanderson confirm that the voices that both Seth and Dalinar hear were caused by the connection formed do to supernatural means, Seth through the use of all of the stormlight, and Dalinar because of his extended connection to the thrill? If I’m wrong, thats fine.
@60 smaugthemagnificent
Actually what he confirmed was spiritual “you” lasts in the spiritual realm. So theoretically that was the Evi that Dalinar was hearing. I will edit with the WoB when I grab it
Argent
Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though – what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of… break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes. It’s a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn’t completely break down (just like your body doesn’t immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there’s a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.
So there is a “record” of “you” hanging out in the spiritual realm for a very long time.
edit: this is probably the WoB you are thinking of:
Blightsong
Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?
Brandon Sanderson
Uhhh, Szeth’s screams. Uhhm, I’m trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here’s the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.
Blightsong
So it has to do with the spiritual realm?
Brandon Sanderson
Yea, mhmm, yea.
Based on those WoB, Personally I believe it was Evi and the Rifters that forgave Dalinar. Also personally if they considered what Dalinar went through as enough, and forgave him, then it is good enough for me. But to each their own.
I’ll say that no one agonizes that much over someone they don’t care about. Dalinar may not have had that deep passionate romance novel type love for Evi, but to say he didn’t care about her at all based on something Dalinar said in Unfettered II is maybe overstating the point. I mean how many people has Dalinar actually agonized over or allowed to change his mind about anything? He killed his own people on the battlefield a few chapters back and all he feels is a vague notion of guilt, not a full-blown spiral into depression and drug addiction. There’s only been four people in the narrative that have have ever been able to budge him from a course he’d previously chosen. Navani, Adolin, Gavilar and Evi. That speaks of love no matter what he may say. But that’s also my opinion, unconfirmed as anyone else’s opinion. To each his own I guess.
As far as redemption arcs go, our 3 Radiants granted that luxury are works in progress. Dalinar, Venli and Szeth are essentially on parole for a lifetime and they’re paying back their debts in real time. The key is that they’ve acknowledged that they were in the wrong and that they must atone. Moash knew he was wrong but believes he was destined to be wrong. Amaram knew he did some terrible things but excuses himself for those actions because he felt his cause was right. Sadeas felt no guilt at all, he did what he wanted and right or wrong never figured into his equations. I say this to say that the redemption arcs we see are both earned and are continuing to be earned. And we can trust them earning their redemption in a way that we never could in real life because we can see inside these character’s heads as well as their outward actions. Even still, their victims might not accept their redemption all the same.
I know I harp on this sometimes, but Sanderson is devout. The Rift is (I would bet money) consciously designed to remind the reader (even if subconsciously) of the Hebrews under Moses destroying the city of Midian and its inhabitants.
Hey, here’s a quote that makes me sure I’m right: “… They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba.” Evi!
This is the same time that THE LORD commanded Moses and the Hebrews to kill all men, women, and boys, leaving only virgin females to be taken as sex slaves. Does this make Moses and his followers unredeemable?
@Gepeto: Sanderson likes morally-compromised protagonists. Kelsier is both a professional thief and a murderer. Wax is at best a violent, alcoholic vigilante when we meet him, and Wayne is a thief who gave up murder. Vasher/Zahel has killed WAY WAY more people than Dalinar ever even considered–he murdered his wife with his own hands (and Nightblood) and started the Manywar, literally stealing (parts of) tens of thousands of souls. How many people has Silence killed in her bounty hunter role? Sixth of the Dusk lays deadly traps for other hunters the way I lock my front door every morning. Prince Raoden and Princess Sarene may be the only two relatively-uncompromised protagonists he has.
@LazerWulf
Notice that this is precisely what Dalinar says (in other words) to Amaram, and Amaram rejects it. I don’t think anyone believes Amaram was redeemed by his brave, self-sacrificing attempt on Dalinar’s life. (Seriously, he was valorous and knew perfectly well he was likely to die.)
@birgit
SPOILER WARNING for … American history of the 18’th Century: speaking of forgiveness for terrible crimes: George Washington held slaves throughout his adult life. As a young man, he had slaves who weren’t obedient enough to his orders–to their OWNER’s orders–“sold south” to the Caribbean, where he knew they would be worked to death in a year or two on sugar plantations. Can you forgive him, because he felt terrible remorse and spent most of his post-Revolution life working to free all his family’s slaves in a way that wouldn’t throw them all into poverty? Is young Dalinar Kholin really worse than young George Washington?
I don’t think Dalinar feels redeemed. He didn’t even ask Cultivation or the Nightwatcher for “redemption”. He asked for “forgiveness”, which he got. Different.
One thing discussion here brought to mind: everyone thought that Dalinar was basically king of Alethkar, with Elhokar as a figurehead. NO ONE will think that Jasnah is a figurehead. No one.
@59: From what I recall, all Dalinar said was to claim Evi had been abducted and this was the reason why they retaliated. The rest of the lies came from Gavilar. For instance, Dalinar’s hand in the burning of the town was completely eviscerated from the official records. They hid the fact the orders came from Dalinar, Sadeas comes across as the sole responsible for the fire. Why not say it was an accident caused by Dalinar, why say it was just Sadeas? Those were lies. Read the re-collection Adolin has of the events, those were the official version. Sadeas is a miscreant, Evi was abducted by evil people, Dalinar was a Saint who couldn’t stop the fire because he was too overcome with grief.
None of this is true. Sure, a part of the lies were to preserve Evi’s reputation, but another part of the lies was to hide Dalinar’s role in the fires.
For the rest, I sill maintain my point: you’d have to be a psychopath not to care for your wife bring burned alive on your own orders. Still doesn’t mean he actually loved her nor that he misses her now she is gone.
@62: I think that what Dalinar did is so horrifying, agonizing over it was the only possible reaction if he ever were to have redemption. Evi was his wife. He shared part of a life with her. He slept with her. He has children with her. He’d have to be a cold-hearted monster not to feel something when he burns her alive on “accident”. That still doesn’t mean, at least from my point of view, he loved her nor that he cared for her much. Mind, not caring for someone doesn’t mean you wish them harm and want them dead, but had Evi say she wanted to head back to Kholinar and never step foot in a warcamps again, Dalinar would have likely rejoiced. Had she move away and had he never seen her again for years, he wouldn’t have mind nor cared.
Dalinar spent years in a warcamp, away from Evi and his sons, and he didn’t care. He didn’t miss them. He didn’t think of them. He was angry when she came. Hence, from my point of view, young Dalinar cared about no one but himself and Gavilar. Caring is something he learned at a much older age.
As such, my opinion remains unchanged, but as I also said, I think the narrative allows for more than one opinion to co-exists.
As for our three characters, I would argue Szeth died and was brought back, Venli lost everything, her people and her dreams of ambition were taken from her. What did Dalinar lose which was so valuable to him? Evi? That’s not enough. Even if I am wrong and he did love her, he didn’t love her enough for her death to be enough. She was not Navani. Both Szeth and Venli’s lost were several orders of magnitude greater than the lost Dalinar had to suffer after the Rift.
Szeth and Venli both paid a high price for their actions. Dalinar paid no price at all. That’s where I am bothered.
@63: I am not saying there aren’t other characters with a debatable past within Brandon’s other pieces of work. Dalinar, however, comes forward as the one having the biggest redemption (so far), he is the one character who’s had an entire book being themed around the concept of his redemption from a barbarous warlord to an honorable general.
As a rule of thumb, I have no issues with morally compromised characters. Where I take issues is when the narrative is trying to shoe-horn into me a morally compromised character actually is the greatest man to have ever lived. Now, of course, I am using a hyperbole to emphasize my point, no one used those exact words, but I keep getting the feeling I should think more highly of Dalinar than I actually do. I also feel, and I will emphasize the fact this is how I personally feel and my feelings may not be the intended reaction, the narrative is trying to sell me Dalinar as an amazing human being, a great man, someone worth admiring as if this morally compromised side of him never existed.
In other words, I keep feeling Dalinar’s past shouldn’t matter. It shouldn’t matter to me. All that should matter is what the character has been doing for three books, which arguably are good actions, I will not deny it, and the fact he started up as a man I wouldn’t shed a tear seeing executed shouldn’t matter.
The other characters you mentioned, I don’t feel I am forced to see them as goody-two-shoes. I do not feel I should kneel in front of their greatnesses nor have they reached heights anywhere near comparable to where Dalinar currently is.
So all of those things create a mix of odd feelings into me.
@@@@@ Gepeto
If Dalinar’s story was over and what we saw in OB was the end of his arc and he felt that he was done with atonement then I’d likely agree with you that it ain’t enough. What allows me to be ok with him and his past is that he himself knows he’s still got a bill due for his past, not just for the Rift but for his entire Blackthorn campaign. He’s even writing a book that will be sure to rain down criticism from many quarters, including his sons.
As far as the cover-up, Gavilar was using the event as a deterrent for others who may in future seek to challenge the throne. In some ways the PR machine emphasizes the slaughter, saying that if forced to send Dalinar to your stronghold you may not have a city left. Gavilar characterizes his bro as a mad dog barely restrained. Dalinar was publicly denounced for his actions. The only thing really changed in the official report was Evi’s involvement.
If SA has taught us anything it’s that characters don’t just get to ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after when they triumph, that the issues they deal with don’t just magically disappear. Kaladin still fights depression, Shallan arguably got worse after finding Urithiru, Szeth looks like he got off scott free after his Assassin-in-White rampage but we can all see his reckoning coming from miles away. Dalinar has a couple punches in the mouth coming surely.
As far as the narrative trying to shoehorn people into liking Dalinar more than one feels is warranted, I believe it’s the same mechanics that give us an overly idealized view of Jasnah. Basically it’s coming from the in-world characters. Adolin thinks Dalinar is the greatest person to ever live. Shallan believes Jasnah to be perfection walking. Their antagonists praise them even as they seek to destroy them. Even when we get in their heads and see that they don’t feel that way about themselves at all, it reads almost like humility. Kaladin gets this same treatment from his Bridge 4 disciples, as does Shallan from her small crew. It’s a feature, not a bug.
@Gepeto:
Kelsier is literally a god now. Not just worshiped as a god, he’s a spiritual being who lives in the Cognitive Realm and apparently communes with his worshipers and grants miracles. He also seemingly managed to incarnate and lead his people across a desert to a promised land. What higher height should he aspire to?
@Gepeto You keep saying that Dalinar is written as this all favorite mary sue that everyone loves ever, in and out of universe, when that isn’t true. the reason the fans like him is because we were introduced to him as the “Only Sane Man’ a character who, to the audience at the publishing of the first book, was against the hedoism and violence. there were hints that he had a rough past, but nothing else. To the audience, he was a classic honorable hero, so of course the fanbase is going to turn to like him, especially with the outright selfless act of the giving away of Oathbringer, and you can’t say that was for any motivational gain, he did not need to really help every single bridgemen, just because one group helped him out. Even in universe, besides his men and his son, pretty much everyone else dislikes him. its not even Dalinar’s words or presence that convinced the Aizsh, but Navani’s, and Lift seeing Odium. THe Thalananan’s outright were desperate and it took him literally rebuilding the city to really convince her. and like Carl said, we are kind of forced to see them as good guys, as they are ALL the heroes. Kaladin is the obiwan, a mentor figure we are just engrained to trust. Wax and Wayne are a funny duo act despite their roughneck pasts. Silence is a mother taking down bad men. See how easy it is to kind of twist a character’s motives to something good, just as it is easy to twist them into something bad? Kelsier was actually a murderer and anarchist. Silence is again, a bounty hunter who was just going for money more than anything else. Wayne is a kepltomaniac. They all had terrible things in their past.
@65: It seems strange to say Szeth got off scott-free when the entire experience was basically hell for him. It wasn’t something he wanted to do, it was something he loathed doing.
He was indoctrinated to believe that the status of Truthless meant that he had no capacity to make moral judgements and that literally anyone else would be a better arbiter of his actions than himself. That’s made pretty clear as the meaning of Truthless.
Szeth doesn’t need to be punished for his actions because his entire life since his exile from Shinovar has been one long, horrific punishment. He has no friends, no family, and nothing. What else would you take from him?
As for Dalinar: Kaladin got his flashback-focus and his big moment (becoming a Radiant, going from bridgeman to head of Dalinar’s guard) in TWAK, and fell apart in WOR. Shallan got her flashback-focus and big moment (finding Urithiru) in WOR and fell apart in OB. Based on this pattern, Dalinar’s going to have a really hard time in Book 4, most likely because of his book.
Szeth’s experience was absolutely hellish, no doubt. But the thing is that no one else knows this other than probably Nale. There are multiple people in the coalition who have lost someone to his former Honorblade. Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar and fierce family defender, lost her father to him, his first victim. For him to show up so close to power with no on-screen explanations is going to sow much tension and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone took a shot at him either out of fear or revenge. But even if they do not I cannot see any meetings with him in the room being anything like jovial or warm.
@65: I definitely agree with your first paragraph. I have stated, within an earlier comment, that while Dalinar’s redemption didn’t feel like it was enough, right now, it might eventually be enough. At a later time. I mentioned how I felt the book he is writing might provide the insight and the narrative I felt was missing within OB. Well, missing might be a big word, but let’s say I agree the story isn’t over yet. So more will come and surely my opinion and perspective will evolve as we read the rest of the story.
On the Rift: But Gavilar lied. He lied about Dalinar’s role within the Rift. The fact Dalinar was responsible for the fire was hidden. We aren’t there yet within the narrative, but the fact remains Sadeas bears the bulk of the blame for what happened at the Rift, not Dalinar. Dalinar is completely guiltless, a poor grief-stricken man who couldn’t stop the carnage. How did it come to this? How is it Adolin doesn’t even know it was his father who ordered the fire? Why does he view him as an innocent lamb having no hand in it? That’s not the truth. I agree they covered up Evi’s role in it to preserve her reputation, on Dalinar’s orders, but the rest of the lie… That wasn’t Dalinar. It came from Gavilar. He couldn’t have Alethkar know his brother did such an atrocity because it would make him a tyrant and incite rebellion, I think.
And Dalinar was a rabid dog to be restraint back in those days… Why did Gavilar send him away in Jah Keved? I suspect it was to get rid of a problem as Dalinar was maiming people in taverns, this wasn’t acceptable, so he sent him away. I think.
I agree with you about Jasnah. I have read enough commentaries from readers refusing to give her even the slightest flaw to disagree with you. Jasnah isn’t perfect, I never felt she were, but sometimes, it feels as if she were. Like Dalinar. They can do no wrong and it makes me yearn for them… to do wrong. Just because it’d make a good story.
@67: I have never used the word Mary Sue. The only time I have used was in reference to Adolin, never Dalinar.
This being said, I may come from a different place, but I never read Dalinar as the “only sane man”, especially within WoK. Back then, I read him as an insane man who’d readily jeopardize the life of thousands of his men and his son merely because a vision told him to. That behavior never seemed “sane” to me and, quite frankly, I thought he’d suffer a stronger backlash for what happened at the Tower. The betrayal wasn’t his, but he was warned in advance. Not only did he choose to ignore the warning, but he also chose to be careless.
Maybe I differ from the fanbase because I never read Dalinar as the classical hero. I read him as the fanatic willing to follow visions just because they felt real without asking himself if what they were suggesting actually was a good idea. It was interesting, but certainly not the hallmark of a hero, not as I typically see them, but YMMV.
I agree there are in-world characters who dislike Dalinar, but they aren’t viewpoint characters. The viewpoint characters, namely Kaladin and Adolin, absolutely see Dalinar as the greatest man alive. Yeah, that’s like Jasnah. And yeah, I wish for more conflictual viewpoints within RoW.
@68: I agree about Szeth. As for Dalinar within RoW, Brandon said to expect a smaller role, so while a smaller role doesn’t negate the possibility of a fall-back, it does limit the scope of it, if it happens. I guess we’ll see. I personally think Dalinar will suffer a backlash due to the reactions towards his book. I suspect book 4 will deal with how other people view him more than how he feels about himself. We already had a book about that and Dalinar pretty much solves his inner dilemma in OB. So I don’t expect more of it, but I do expect other characters to have a “reaction” to the truth about his past.
Gepeto @@@@@ various above. If I understand your position correctly, you believe that Dalinar has not suffered enough (as of the end of OB). My apologies if I misconstrued your position.
I disagree. I believe Dalinar has in fact suffered enough. First, Dalinar realized that his actions of a total razing of Rathalas was more than his morals could stomach in real time. Dalinar finally relented to his inner conscious and order the killing of the civilians (at least the non-family members of Tanalan) to stop. Unfortunately, that is not possible because of how Sadeas chose to interpret Dalinar’s original orders. Worse, for Dalinar, he learned that his razing of Rathalas led to the death of Dalinar’s wife (and probably a painful death, at that). He may not have loved her as much as he loved Navani (both at that point in time and in the present timeline), but she still was the mother of his sons. By this point in time, I believe that Dalinar had come to respect Evi in some ways. Maybe he did not love her, but he did care for her and realized that Evi did not deserve to die.
I have no doubt that Dalinar felt responsible for Evi’s death and for the other civilians killed at Rathalas. If not, he would not have constantly got himself drunk so as to constantly forget the pain. At some point, Dalinar has an epiphany (a combination, I think, of Gavilar’s murder by Szeth, Dalinar listening to Jasnah read the WoK and Renarin hugging Dalinar and telling Dalinar that he believes in Dalinar). Dalinar feels he needs to be a better person, live in the current world and stop drinking. But he still is suffering enough to go to the Nightwatcher. It was there Cultivation took away the memories that burdened Dalinar’s conscious. (Of course, the removal of those memories also took away any memories about anything connected to the deaths at Rathalas, including, most importantly, Evi.) Yet, Cultivation said those memories would eventually come back.
And come back they did (through the course of the OB. We the reader learn about these memories in the flashback scenes. Dalinar also relieves these memories. So Dalinar has to endure the pain of these events all over again. For Dalinar, the pain is immense and he suffers once again. Then during his confrontation with Odium just before the Battle of Thaylen City, Odium makes Dalinar relieves the same torturous memories. Dalinar relives those memories for at least a third time. (Odium tells Dalinar that Dalinar will relive these memories again and again until Dalinar lets go of the memories. But I am not sure if Dalinar had to relive the memories more than one cycle before Dalinar accepted the memories.)
Dalinar had to endure the pain of these memories at least 3 times (when it originally happened; when his memories came back as part of the effects of the boon Cultivation gives Dalinar; and Odium causing Dalinar to relive the memories). In my opinion, I feel this is a sufficient amount of suffering on Dalinar’s part.
My point is not to try to convince you that you are wrong. Your opinion is your opinion. I am just stating my opinion (which happens to differ from your opinion). To each their own. That said, my ego would be quite happy if my arguments actually convince you to change your opinion.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
To me the question of whether Dalinar has paid enough for his crimes or deserves redemption is in some ways irrelevant. I’d take a commander of his integrity as my superior in combat, warts and all. However I understand that the question is important to a vast majority of the fandom. There are folks on one side of the debate that feel like the Blackthorn has been treated with kid gloves while others have already bought into his journey.
I think that it’s a matter of private suffering vs the ability to observe punishment. To clarify, Dalinar suffered mightily for his crimes. He was not right in the head for a good number of years as he fought through the twin battles of Thrill withdrawal and guilt for his bloody past. Yet if I had family in Ralathas on that fateful day I’d observe the guy who murdered my people get accolade after accolade and I’d wish him all the bad things in the world. Oh he feels bad about it? Apologize to my wife. Oh that’s right ya can’t. Her burning broken body is at the bottom of a canyon right now. Same goes with Szeth. Could you really blame Jasnah if she wants to rip his truthless tongue out, soulcast the bloody meat into crystal covered on oil and make him chole on it before setting it on fire? Will she really care that he hears the voices of his victims nightly and it nearly drove him insane? Which weighs more to you? How the scales are tipped is determined largely upon how much you love or hate a particular character. I will say that the only reason we can even quantify this is because we can actually see their pain, their remorse, their determination to take the next step. Sadly we don’t have that particular power in real life and must rely on the imperfect tool called empathy.
@71: I do not like the term “suffered” all that much as I feel it implies torture. What I meant is Dalinar didn’t have any lasting consequences for his actions. Moreover, he has no external consequences, just a bout of internal struggles and his internal struggles aren’t enough. As I say down below to @72, being sorry isn’t enough when thousands of people died.
And while yes, Dalinar has some years where he internally suffers for his actions, that was it. The death of thousands of innocent people is being avenged by Dalinar drinking for 6 years, then walking out of it within the opened arms of his loving family members and his fellow countrymen. No consequences. No one to hang it over his head. No one to call him a drunken fool and push him away from command. No angry son at his behavior seeking to be away from Dalinar.
Nothing.
So no, crying over his miserable lot isn’t enough for me. Yes, Dalinar tries to be a better person, but that’s way too easy given how much leniency he is being given. He has the opportunity to lobotomize his memories to stop suffering, a luxury most men wouldn’t have been given. He has the wealth and the power to order things to change. He is backed down by a family loyal to him who loves him unconditionally. No one, literally no one, within the Kholin family has been aggravated by Dalinar’s time as a drunk. No one. Navani loves him unconditionally. Adolin would die for him within a heartbeat. Renarin too. Jasnah thinks he is the greatest man alive. Elhokar loves him dearly. That was too much for me. I cannot buy being an alcoholic leaves no scars within a family, I cannot buy every single family member is just *fine* with it, doesn’t care about it. No one. Again, this was too much for me to accept. It wasn’t realistic enough. It was too much forgiveness for actions too bad that I am willing to accept.
Hence, the price he was asked to pay wasn’t, to my eyes, sufficient for the life he has taken.
I, however, respect others completely totally disagree with me. I understand your argument. I understand why most readers readily emphasize with Dalinar and, as such, think his suffering was more than enough to pay for his crimes. I am unfortunately going to need more to feel the same. Sorry about that.
@72: Love the kid’s gloves expression: this definitely highlights how I feel towards the Blackthorn.
Yes, I agree Dalinar didn’t feel right for years because of what he did, but what were the lasting consequences on this? Did he destroy his health by drinking so heavily? Nope. Did he ruin his family by drinking all of his money? Nope. Did he alienate his sons due to how he treated them? Nope. Does he have to gain back the trust and the confidence of others following those hard years? Nope.
There were zero consequences to Dalinar being a drunk for years except for Dalinar being a drunk for years. This is why I cannot accept this was enough to atone for his crimes.
So do I have empathy for Dalinar? Honestly, no. I don’t have empathy for him because, still from my personal point of view, he didn’t get enough of a backlash for what he did. His suffering is not enough because it had no consequences other than Dalinar having some guilt. His guilt is not enough. Being sorry for what he did isn’t enough. Being sorry is never going to be enough.
It will be enough when Dalinar faces real lasting consequences for his actions, when Dalinar has to work to gain back trust, when Dalinar isn’t being handed everything on a golden platter without needing to do much for it. That’s when I am likely to feel, this is enough.
Again, I respect the fact other readers have completely different feelings on Dalinar. You do right to point out it boils down to how much empathy we can get for a given character. For many readers, reading Dalinar feeling sorry and seeing him try to be better is enough. I respect it is, but I still hope there will be more so it can be enough, for me.
On the side note, I don’t know if anyone read the Faithfull and the Fallen, but I cannot stop reading those books. They seldom get any attention within the fantasy fandom and I don’t understand why. Sure, it isn’t re-inventing the wheel here, but it is a gripping story with enough flips and twists to stay entertaining. There are no dull moments. And the author managed to write one very sympathetic character who’s, at the same time, some dull-witted imbecile who condone the worst of actions because he cares not to think farther than his nose, because of blind loyalty. I am torn in between wanting to see him dead and wanting him to open his eyes to see what he has been doing in the name of the “greater good”.
It’s very low on magic and world-building though, so Sanderson’s fans are unlikely to like. I find them a breath of fresh air.
@Gepeto:
I believe Dalinar has paid the ultimate price, the most valuable thing he had: His certainty.
The Blackthorn was the perfect tool of destruction. HIs entire internal monologue (in the beginning) revels in killing. There are no questions whether he’s doing the right thing. The Dalinar we’re encountering today? He second-guesses pouring out his wash water because he might hurt the feelings of the water-spren.
I think for him that’s probably the biggest loss he _could_ take.
I would rank it as an internal price, not an external one.
I would also counter-argue the statement Dalinar worries about hurting the water-spren whenever he is pouring water. Granted, I get this is meant as a hyperbolas, but I still find Dalinar has retained a ruthless side. Sure, he will no longer purposefully, genuinely decide to cause unwarranted harm towards others, but he will commit his armies to battle, knowing many will die and hurt, if he believes this is the right course of action. He hasn’t become some pacifier who refuses to fight: he is still a fighter, but he tries to think things through before he acts. This being said, in WoK, he still was quite impulsive, as within his youth: blindly trusting the visions and thus opening the door wide for betrayal by a man he has been warned in advance might have conflicting interests was not only idiotic, it also caused a great deal lot of harm. Granted, he isn’t the betrayer, but a bit of common sense would have prevented the carnage.
The part I remember where Dalinar questions whether he is doing the right thing was in WoR where he questions the war of unification. Or parts of OB where he genuinely admits all the bloodshed he condoned couldn’t have been the will of the Almighty as the Almighty is dead. The part where he realizes it is all on him, the bloodshed. I wish the narrative had explore those themes in greater depth. I found right here and there we had the seed to reposition ourselves next to the war of unification, the narrative had the possibility for Dalinar to admit they have been wrong, worst, they had been the bad guys, but it never takes this plunge. I wish it did.
This being said, I do not find the short moments where Dalinar has some doubts about himself enough of a consequence. To recap my thoughts, what I found it missing, missing for me not necessarily missing for all readers, are external consequences. Dalinar spent decades slaughtering people left and right without ever questioning his own actions up until he goes too far and is literally forced to do so. What are the lasting consequences, for him, for his behavior? Guilt and self-doubting. Those were the price to pay to atone for the life of thousands of innocents… Since when is guilt *enough* when it comes to murdering children and innocents? Some additional external consequences, IMHO, would have made it feels, at the very least, as if Dalinar was actually paying a better price of his own choices.
But well, I mean, I have said my piece. There isn’t much more I can add to it. Some people will perhaps read it and nod their heads in agreement, other will rage with mad anger in complete disagreement, but in the end, one can only read a story from their own perspective. If I were supposed to feel sorry for Dalinar, then OB didn’t manage to make me feel this way. If I were supposed to feel conflicted, then it has succeeded. It the intend were for readers to be divided on it, then again, it hits the mark. Knowing Brandon, he probably wanted readers to argue about it and not all to agree on the conclusions. If I am right, then, well, the narrative he proposed achieved just that. We don’t all agree.
Recently on Netflix a movie has been released. It is called “Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile”. It is about the serial killer Ted Bundy. It is reported that it is confirmed he killed 30 young women, with many many more unconfirmed. He ultimately was locked up, and given the death penalty. People cheered and celebrated outside the prison when the execution was carried out. During the entire lead up Ted Bundy did not for a single moment show any remorse for what he did. In fact for 90 percent of it, he maintained he was not guilty and did no such thing. It wasn’t till the death penalty was ruled for him, and there was no chance of him getting out of it, in addition to a psychological trick (where the psychologist asked how does Ted think a “murderer” would have done these killings, and Ted replied how he felt such a person would do it, with the details being confirmed via forensics being him) that Ted admitted to the killings and how they were done. He spoke of the women as if they were objects, and they were lucky and deserving of what was done to them. During the trial he had 3 women obsessed with him, and believing he was innocent all along. Why do I mention these horrific facts? The family’s of those girls will have to either trust that death truly is the end of a person, resulting in such an individual being removed from this earth for the safety of others, or belief in a higher power that Ted Bundy will receive the continual punishment he deserves. Because on this earth, he certainly was un-phased. He turned his trial into a spectacle, loving the attention. He escaped multiple times, just to continue to do the same exact thing and kill several other women. So Ted got a very real punishment in a very real and legal way, yet it didn’t bother him none. The three women obsessed with him (two of them at least) realized what kind of person he was and cut off all contact. Again, didn’t phase him none. He just continued writing letters to other women from prison. He nearly had an out to avoid the death penalty, but he spat in the plea deals face because he wanted to prolong the spectacle even though it all but guaranteed his execution. To me it didn’t sound like the very real, legal punishment accomplished anything other than remove the chance of him killing again. It doesn’t sound like him losing the worship of those three women bothered him any. He just replaced them with more women. No remorse, No regret, No desire to change.
So for me, knowing for a fact a killer is truly and deeply pained inside over the actions he has done. Knowing that everyday is torment to that person is the greater punishment than four walls and 3 square meals everyday while the killer feels nothing over what they have done. I think it is a far better thing, that such an individual would then learn from that pain, and seek to do better, and try to bring good to the world, where before they brought pain and evil. It never balances out the scales, but to me it is better than a charismatic, good looking man, who smiles while he details the horrible murders he has done, and how he plans on escaping to do even more. To each their own.
There is no one who could punish Dalinar. He is the one in charge (earlier it was his brother, who found him a useful tool for his conquering, as long as he could be sent away to fight elsewhere when he becomes too much of a problem at home). The only way there can be consequences for him is internal. The priests don’t really have power to do anything to him (they are his slaves), and the other rulers only matter because he wants an alliance with them. The highprinces prefer the Blackthorn to the new Dalinar anyway. His god is dead. If his family stops worshiping him as perfect that isn’t really an official punishment, either. Cultivation and Odium are the only beings “above” him, and they both want to use him for their own plans.
@76: I agree there is just no one to punish Dalinar: he is just above the law. It is either he makes the law or he ranks too high to be held accountable to it (like Sadeas). I also agree it would be impractical for the narrative to steer it towards trialing the Blackthorn for his war crimes.
Hence, even if legal justice is impossible, for all of the reasons you listed, I have always felt if, at the very least, had Dalinar’s behavior degraded his family relationships, alienated one son or two, destroyed the trust they have in him, then yeah, OK, I’d feel better with the whole redemption theme. I wouldn’t feel Dalinar is being given the butter and the money to buy the butter. While it wouldn’t be an “official punishment”, it would be tangible consequences to his actions other than his own feelings about them.
Dalinar’s family stopping to worship him would be an external consequence, something he’d have to deal with, something he wouldn’t be pleased with, something tangible he would have lost, the love of those he loves, something he’d have to work to gain back, something he wouldn’t be given an easy way out of.
but that’s not good storytelling. that’s melodramatic bull, “why didn’t you tell us!?” “Well…my memories were kind of wiped by a shard of divinity, and i was trying to drink myself into a coma because of said guilt of doing so” how else can he explain it? besides, Jasnah would see it as practical and not really judge him, and Navani would feel bad for him. Hell, for all we know, Renarain probalby already HAS seen it because of his own powers, the thing he was most worried about besides his own death was Dalinar falling to Odium, so something that happened to the past won’t affect him because he’s too worried about the future. The only one that coudl really be affected is Adolin…who will come off as a hypocrite because of his own murder. maybe they will have say, one chapter that they talk about both of their crimes, and than decide “hey, this isn’t that important as it is in the past, we need to see to the future.”
@79 Steven Hedge
I would imagine given the subject matter Dalinar would not wait till the book Oathbringer was published, to speak to his children about the memories he recently regained. So in all likelihood I believe Adolin and Renarin will find out about Evi during the 1 year time gap. Don’t know if time will be put towards a “mini” flash back to see that moment. Personally I do not think so. I feel like the 1 year time gap is to help accelerate a lot of the general things occurring during war, so we can get to the next big moments.
@79: He’s known for 6 years and he didn’t tell them. Then, he took a deal which erased his memories of Evi, while knowing it would, just so he could stop being bothered by those memories. I don’t know about others, but finding my father had purposefully erase all memories from my mother just because he couldn’t deal with the pain wouldn’t sit well with me. In fact, I’d be ragging mad at him for taking her away from me, from taking her away from our life, for thinking she didn’t matter enough to be remembered, for having lied about it for so many years… It is such an ego-centrist selfish thing to do! It is not enough Dalinar took Evi away from life, he took her away from his memories! That’s awful! No amount of “Desolation” and “ending of the world” would prevent me from being downright angry at my father. If I were his child, I would hate him for it. At least for a while. Probably a long while, but all can rest assure, I am not one writing the book.
Still, I do not think this would be melodrama bull: this would be realistic reactions to a tragedy. By not wanting the characters to ever react to events IF they aren’t some past secret they have kept hidden, SA is slowly taking steps away from what makes characters complex human beings. In other words, it may be practical for Adolin, Renarin and Jasnah to keep on worshiping Dalinar, it may be what is best for humanity to blindly follow Dalinar’s lead without questioning, but it sure is a big step away from a rich narrative featuring realistic human beings who aren’t always going to do what is practical nor what is best because their heart may feel differently.
Human beings are complex, not simple-minded one-dimensional individuals who always react within the best interest of the narrative. I have been wanting SA to offer this complexity, this richness of characters, of behaviors, of various reactions which aren’t always what we want, but ends up making those characters feel more alive and I found this is where narrative plot where it could offer it.
What would be melodrama bull though is Adolin being called a hypocrite for being angry at his father while having murdered Sadeas. Thousands of innocent people being burned alive including a beloved mother who’s memories were later erased, on purpose, is totally not comparable to having killed a man guilty of treason who has admitted he would kill everyone within the Kholin family as soon as he sees an opening.
It just doesn’t even begin to compare.
As thus, not only Adolin, but Renarin and Jasnah would totally within their rights to react negatively to Dalinar’s revelation. Granted of the three, Adolin is the most likely to react negatively. Jasnah actually is too pragmatic for it and Renarin too focused on the future, I agree about this. Adolin though? He’s the one who remembers, who cherishes memories: I can’t see him dealing well with memories being erased, I can’t see him accepting to have lived as if Evi never existed all of those years after hearing why he did it. I can’t see him accepting it was Dalinar and not Sadeas who burned the Rift, that his father wasn’t this poor broken soul who needed comfort, but this mad monster who gave the order.
I think this would be consistent, realistic character development. The “no one reacts”, “nothing happens” plot arc has been abundantly used in OB. My hopes are Brandon will steer away from it for now on.
But YMMV. That’s just mine.
I realize writing this it may be my reading tastes are slowly diverging from what SA is intented to be. Sadly. I want characters to react to events as the next big moment matters not if all of the smaller ones were ignored. SA, unfortunately, has not been good at keeping track with those, at least, it wasn’t great at doing it in OB. I find it unfortunate as I find the end results are the characters end up lacking layers and flavors. Everyone reacts the same. Everyone has the same inclinations.
@Gepeto
To be fair, Dalinar did not go to the Nightwatcher to forget. He went for forgiveness. The Nightwatcher could not grant his request so the issue got sorta pushed up the chain. Culti was the one who pruned his memory. Forgetting Evi was the curse price. Neither boon nor curse would be something Dalinar would have willingly chosen, surely that wasn’t what he had in mind. So, blaming him for his actions? Totally reasonable. Blaming him for forgetting Evi when that’s clearly not what he asked for? Can’t say that I’d go there.
As an aside, Adolin is going to be burdened with a lot of information in RoW. He’s going to get the first edition of Oathbringer plus Shallan talks Ghostbloods. He’s Kaladin’s only friend so he is gonna catch all that friendly interaction and I cannot imagine him and Renarin growing apart. He’s going to be the weathervane for the readers, reacting as we would react to the ongoing changes involved with a world where Odium is ascendant.
@81: Dalinar did not seek the Nightwatcher to have his memories of Evi removed. That was the cost Cultivation gave to him in order to “prune” him into the man he could become. He agreed to it, yes, but it was not why he specifically went there. All he knew was that the Old Magic could change a man, and he could not continue the way he had been. He did not know that what he most wanted was “forgiveness” until he finally got there and said it aloud. And there are several reasons why he would never mention his visit, not the least of which is the Vorin stigma of seeking the Old Magic in the first place, but also perhaps in a transferred sense of guilt. Cultivation only took his memories, not his compulsions, and so instead of feeling guilty that he killed her, he feels guilty that he can’t remember her at all.
And I do feel you’re being a bit unfair to a series that’s only 60% done. You’re acting like the other two books have already come out and Dalinar never faced any consequences. I get what you’re saying, that as of what we know now, you don’t feel like you can forgive Dalinar, and that’s understandable. Honestly, I think Dalinar himself would agree with you. Justice would demand that he pay for what he’s done, but you must also allow for mercy. “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind” as they say.
@81: Cultivation told Dalinar what the price would be. He agreed. If my recollection is correct, he had the opportunity to refuse and to back down. He chose to erase the memories. So while it wasn’t what he asked, what he asked was more important to him than memories of his wife. As I said, I wouldn’t be so accepting if ever put within this situation, but that’s me. I mean, I am not Adolin nor Renarin nor Jasnah.
I agree Adolin will be burdened by information from all sides and be expected to suck it up without saying a word. As a reader who appreciates characters having a wider realm of reactions, yeah, I am hoping for, well, a reaction. Even if it goes against what Dalinar wants, even if it is not practical, even if it isn’t helping anyone. I just find it more realistic: human beings do not always make the most rational and practical choices. See Kaladin at the Kholinar palace or Kaladin in WoR. It made his character feel more realistic, more plausible. I’d love if other characters could also be allowed to have reactions when they are told truths which bothers them (like Kaladin chose to assassinate Elhokar when he founds out about Roshone, that’s exactly what I meant: a truth, a reaction even if, well, not the good one).
The truth about the Rift and Evi is the biggest truth we had uncover so far (well personal truth). I would hate to see it happen during the one year gap and to find our characters, in RoW, at a time where this is all forgotten and forgiven. This would be terribly anti-climatic. At least, it would be for me.
@85: Dalinar allowed the memories of his wife to be taken not because they weren’t as important as what he was asking, but because they were. Dalinar’s last thought before giving up his memories was that he hadn’t deserved Evi. He didn’t think he was worthy enough to even hold on to the memories of her, and so he let Cultivation take them.
Oathbringer page 1079
“A boon and a curse” the Mother said “That is how it is done. I will take these things from your mind. And with them, I take her”
“I..” Dalinar tried to speak as plant life engulfed him. “Wait!”
Remarkably, the vines and branches stopped. Dalinar hung there, speared by vines that had somehow pushed through his skin. There was no pain, but he felt the tendrils writhing inside his very veins
“Speak”
“You’ll take…” he spoke with difficulty. “You’ll take Evi from me?”
“All memories of her. This is the cost. Should I forbear?”
Dalinar squeezed his eyes shut. Evi….
He had never deserved her.
“Do it” he whispered
Sounds like taking the memories of Evi was the curse, not the boon. Cultivation names it the cost. Looks like Dalinar didn’t want to lose his memories of her, but felt he wasn’t good enough to hold onto her. He felt didn’t deserve her. But I assume we will discuss this further when the chapter comes up.
(just adding info to what you said LazerWulf)
It occurs to me that the “Dalinar hasn’t earned it” position connects directly to the underlying mythology of the Stormlight Archive. It is a disagreement with the third sentence of the First Ideal of the Knights Radiant: “Journey before destination.” Dalinar has by no means reached any sort of final goal in his personal journey and wouldn’t claim to have somehow become perfect or admirable. He only asserts that he is “a better person” than he was 20 years ago, or 10, or 1. The journey is the point.
It’s certainly possible to simply say that the Radiants (and their teachers, the Heralds) are wrong, but that’s the philosophy they all swear to follow.
@86: And this was one of the most selfish thing he ever did. By taking away his memories from his wife, he is also taking them away from his children. By no longer sharing the memories he has of her, by no longer talking about her, Dalinar is erasing the memories of Evi not only from him, but from his children. To stay alive, memories of a dead person needs to be shared, to be discussed, to be treasured which is why Dalinar’s actions were terribly selfish. He took her away. I can’t think of a worst way to deal with a deceased parent than by having the surviving parent act as if this parent never existed. To forget her. On purpose.
Dalinar’s kids will never get to ask him how their mother was, how they met nor any details about their childhood. It is all gone. They won’t get to ask the: “How was she like?” and the likes. Maybe they wouldn’t, but the possibility was taken away from them and by now, they both know “Evi” isn’t a topic of discussion they can have. Sure, they have “their memories” but they were *kids*. Kids don’t remember as much as adults, kids do not remember everything. Children of a dead parent would rely on the surviving parent to patch on their own memories, to keep them alive, to not forget and Dalinar took this away from them. It is like Dalinar took the family album and burned it to the ground because he never deserved to be in it without caring if his kids might want to keep it.
Thus Dalinar killed Evi twice: once by accident and once on purpose as a person is only as dead as the memories of her. Poor Evi didn’t even deserve Dalinar to make an effort to remember her and he dared claim he needed her out of his head because he never deserved her! It is the other way around! He rejects her, he destroys her because he couldn’t hold on to a few memories! One of the way Dalinar could have atone for his crimes would have been by keeping Evi’s memory ALIVE. To make sure she didn’t die for nothing. Not the opposite! By trying to built something out of his mistakes, by trying to use Evi’s memory in a constructive manner.
If Dalinar didn’t deserve Evi, then the right course of actions would have been to work towards being the man she would have deserved, but wiping her out, while knowing he was wiping her out, is equivalent to killing her, once again. In the name of his pain.
Evi died for nothing and after her death, she wasn’t even important enough to make the effort to keep her memories alive. Dalinar might have never deserved Evi, but SHE deserved HE made more of an effort to keep HER memory alive, even if it hurts, even if it causes him pain, because that’s all he could do now. One way to atone for killing her would have been to treasure her, to use her as an example, to strive to be a better person, not for Gavilar, not for the Way of Kings, but FOR HER.
Make her death mean something.
@88: So the term “journey” means a given individual could have been found guilty of mutilating children for pleasure (random example), but providing this person decides to have a change of heart and feels moderately sorry for himself, all is forgiven? All of his victims would be merely tossed away as part of a “journey”? Is this all Evi amounts too? Dalinar’s journey? So she died so man who never deserved it could call his life a “journey”?
I am glad I am not Evi.
There is a limit what can be forgiven without proper retribution nor consequences. So far, the Radiants have been given a blank slate: their past matters not so long as they start their journey. I can only speak for myself, but the past does matter. Evi did matter.
I am sorry but what you choose to do as an individual doesn’t stop mattering because you do a walkabout in the jungle and have a magic entity whip your memories. If this indeed is the premise of the story, that your actions do not matter so long as you become a Radiant, then I will yearn for Brandon to write in the opposite perspective, to have other character questions the legitimacy of the Radiants and the leniency they are being given to pardon their past actions. I dunno if he plans to have it, probably not, but as a reader, given this premise, that’s the one perspective I would find the most interesting to have within this series.
@89 Brandon will definitely be addressing the question of the legitimacy of the Radiants, etc., as the characters find out more about their history and the history of how humans came to Roshar. The revelation that humans were actually the Voidbringers and associated in some way with Odium, and that they were responsible for ruining Ashyn through surgebinding is at least partially responsible for the Recreance. I am sure that the issue will be significant in upcoming books.
I have to strongly disagree with you when you claim that Dalinar forgetting Evi was as bad as murdering her. There is no moral equivalency there. Dalinar did not choose to forget her; he was desperate, he asked for forgiveness, and a divine force told him forgetting Evi was the price he had to pay. Of course he accepted it. If he had refused, what would have happened? He definitely would not have improved, and his sons would not have benefited from an insane or dead father, or even Dalinar in the state he was in. There would have been no sharing of memories of Evi either way.
“feels moderately sorry for himself” That is not accurate. Dalinar was so desperate he turned to supernatural help from something he had previously scoffed at. And he was not simply feeling sorry for himself; he felt guilt, meaning that he was ashamed of wrongdoing. He recognized the magnitude and horror of his crimes. That is not feeling sorry for himself.
Of course, that happened too late for his victims, and I can understand why you are not willing to move past it.
I do have more faith in Brandon’s handling of the situation.
@88 Carl,
Good point. Like his third Oath says “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”
Dalinar is very much in the process. All those years ago Evi saw it and it was through their love for each other, he began to grow even then. Everyday is a chance to move forward, move beyond the past, stop dwelling and grow as a person. The Stormlight Archive does seem to focus on personal responsibility and growth. No one is perfect, and everyone is in the process of change.
@89 We don’t know what will happen in upcoming books. Many or even most of the Radiants might end up sacrificing their lives in the fight against Odium. If not, devoting one’s life to protecting and helping others seems like the best way to try and make up for past misdeeds. The thing is, no matter what Radiants may have done in the past, their powers can’t be wasted. The humans can’t afford to turn down someone who wants to (truly) help and is trying to do better; the fight against Odium is just too important to waste the power available. That includes Szeth, who is a murderer, but who genuinely wants to do good and help save everyone from Odium.
The series seems to be about redemption in many ways, perhaps even redemption for humanity as a whole. That may mean that justice gives way to mercy. @91 great minds think alike!
ywah you seem to be mistertperting dalinars entire journey Gepeto. He didn’t go to the nightmother to forget he didnt know what he wanted. He was desperate. He did care for her someone doesnt have that amount of guilt of you didnt care for that person look at adolin he didnt care that he killed sadeas and took a husband away from someone he more cared about his father thought of him. It is clear daliniar care about her and felt temendous guilt. And yes he did hide it for six years. Its called being human. When the entire society is pinning him as a hero, clearly not willing to listen to him he turned to drink.
Also what is this about taking her memory away from his sons? Both of them clearly werent affected by their father not telling loving romances about their marriage even before cultivation took his memories away. i would be surprised if that was kosher in alethi culture. Everything they do is for show, and talking about hoe someone got married does not sound like they donthatbhell they frown upon hugging for almightys sake. Also the noral of the story isnt no matter what you do it doesnt matter as long as ylu are radiant. The moral of each of the characters story is surpassing their terrible pasts, becoming better humans than what they were. Hell dalinars words in this book are literatlly to not look back on the past but to be better next time. A fantastic lesson instead of paying for a crime that happened years ago as long as you are bold enough to accept you have done terrible things. Thats ehy moarsh sadeas and amarans stories all end in tradgey. Because they never take responsibility
Actually now that I think about it and read responses to my previous message, the trip the Nightwatcher had all three elements of the First Ideal.
“Life before death.” Dalinar was on the way to death either through recklessness or alcohol.
“Strength before weakness.” By letting Cultivation mutilate his Cognitive aspect, his mind (which is what happened), Dalinar became enormously more capable of action. Even as the Blackthorn, he was just a sharp, pointy tool in his brother’s hands.
“Journey before destination” we already covered.
@93
I guess my question would be, can one take responsibility for one’s actions, at the same time as not making restitution? It seems contradictory to me. For me, step one is to stop causing harm. That;s a good first step. Definitely be a better person. But I don’t see one as taking responsibility for harm caused unless they try to fix it. Otherwise, it is just putting their feelings on it into the past– while ignoring its effects on those harmed.
I’ll have to see with Dalinar in the next book– along with Szeth and Venli.
@91: If my partner were to die and if I were to permenantly remove all memories I have of my partner (say this is possible), then I’d be taking these memories from my children as well as I wouldn’t be able to tell them about their other parent. I wouldn’t be able to share my memories of their other parents with my kids and, in my personal experience, kids need this. They need to know who their other parents were.
When Dalinar takes away his memories of Evi, he takes away the possibility of sharing them with his sons, of giving them those memories of their mother, memories they do not have.
That’s what I meant. The memories Dalinar lost were also lost for his kids because he removed himself the possibility of sharing them, of keeping Evi alive through remembering her. And that’s a terrible thing to do. Her removed her from his life and, by doing so, he also removed her from his son’s life. How long do we think it took before the boys realized talking about mommy was a “bad thing”?
For the rest, Dalinar might not have gone to the Nightwatcher with the intention of forgetting, but once he was there, he was told this would be his curse, he was given the opportunity to back down. He chose to go forward with it, so he chose to have those memories removed even if this isn’t what he initially asked for.
As for the moral of the story, I agree it is likely intented to be what you say, but I do not like it. The idea people’s crimes should go unpunished so long as they feel guilty enough hurts my core values in a harsh way. You do wrong? You face consequences and once you do, then you can try to redeem yourself, but not before. That’s why I have so many problems with Dalinar: he gets to redeem himself without ever having to pay the price of his actions other than having killed his wife. There were no retribution, he is just allowed to have this second chance while bathing within the unconditional love and support of his family.
That’s just too much for me to bear, to much to accept.
On the side note, we do not know how affected Adolin nor Renarin were for their mother dying as the focus is never put on their reaction. They must have however learned a long time ago not to speak of their mother and while scars aren’t readily apparent, it certainly isn’t a *good thing to do*. Would I do it to my kids? Never. Do I think it could harm my kids if I were to do it? Yes. Totally, but again, the focus of the story isn’t on Adolin nor Renarin, so we may never know.
Dalinar and his pain is the focus, not the pain he has caused to others. That’s, in the context of this series, not considered important. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
@92: I guess I disagree seeking the Nightwatcher was a sign of strength as I see it as the “easy way out”. From my perspective, choosing to ask the Nightwatcher to solve his problems for him was a sign of weakness from Dalinar just as choosing to forget his wife, once the bargain is explained to him, was not a strong choice.
Had Dalinar put strength before weaknesses, he would have chosen to keep his memories and to deal with them. That’s what strength would have been, under my perspective, not getting a fix to make him feel better about himself.
@92 ladyrian
I agree. There are many people (like Ted Bundy) that you can punish up down and all around and it means nothing. When you truly know a person is affected is when at their core they feel guilt and seek to do better. Otherwise all it is is going through the motions. Nothing has changed. The person is the same. Those lost are still lost. But if we have the benefit of knowing for a fact how the person feels like we do with Dalinar, then seeing his torment and desire to change is the best example of taking responsibility and changing the world for the better. Otherwise you are just hammering away at a brick wall that will never change.
@93 Steven Hedge
I agree. I will also say that Adolin and Renarin would hear plenty of memories from Navani and Jasnah. They would hear even more memories from their Uncle Toh if they ever visited him. I think it says a lot of Dalinar’s character that he felt that he wasn’t worthy of the good memories of his wife. It shows how he valued and cared for her. How he loved her. That he was seeking to atone. Cultivation said it herself. She wasn’t going to change Dalinar. He is still going to be the exact same person. He would have to choose what he would do with it and he chose to do better. Even though it was the harder path.
@94 Carl
Beautiful sentiment. I like it :)
@97 yep, I agree!
@96 But what kind of memories would Dalinar share? You keep arguing that he never truly loved her (I think it is fair to argue this), and that he never cared enough. So what would be the point of his sharing memories if they were insincere or not particularly loving?
And I thought, like Scath in 97, that there are other people in Adolin and Renarin’s lives that could share memories of Evi, without all of baggage Dalinar has in relation to her and their relationship.
I also have a slightly different view on redemption and how important inward change is. I agree there should be consequences and punishment for crimes, but I think inward repentance and guilt are as important for true redemption. I won’t argue this point, of course, because that is my personal view and is based largely on my Christian beliefs; no need to discuss personal beliefs or subjective concepts. This discussion need only concern the scope of the books themselves.
I think Dalinar has and will experience enough suffering and consequences to allow him to continue on the path of redemption (including in the next two books). His guilt/suffering/etc. may not be enough to expiate the Rift and the rest of his misdeeds, but I think it is enough to allow him to remain in his position as Bondsmith, leader of the Radiants, etc., and generally as a figure who is trying to do better and who is working to save humanity.
I also don’t think going to the Nightwatcher was wrong. Dalinar reached a point where he couldn’t do anything and was bound to go insane, die, or fall even deeper into alcoholism, which might have made him start acting violent, etc. He recognized that he lacked the ability to fix his problems and that he needed help from outside of himself. He knew that he needed forgiveness, which means that he recognized his guilt and that he was to blame for what he had done. And he chose to go the Nightwatcher, someone Evi had talked about, and who was seen as a superstition or worse by the Vorin Church.
This is a really interesting discussion, and I hesitate to jump in (in part because I don’t think I have the answers either), but I have some similar ideas to @98. We certainly know there are some people who have no desire to be redeemed – I hate to say that it’s ‘impossible’, but it’s very unlikely. Either because of their own desires, or maybe due to their brains just being so formed that it’s impossible.
As for Dalinar though, we know he has experienced an interior change. Now, this does not mean there is no concept of external justice. Even in my own (Catholic) believes, there is a belief that even if you seek/attain forgiveness, we still have a responsibility to temporal atonement. In our modern society, perhaps we would say that Dalinar would be charged with a crime. But I don’t know in Alethi culture what the equivalent here would be; I don’t know that they even have a concept of war crimes tribunals.
That said, what would the consequences do? What will be the point of the consequences? Nothing can bring the people back. Dalinar already feels remorse and is taking pains to improve himself and therefore would not repeat the incident (although again, we have the benefit of being aware of this from a reliable narrator) and is even working to be a better person. As frustrating as it is to feel like he ‘got away’ with it, I’m also not sure what type of consequence would ever be truly appropriate for something like this. Usually consequences are used (depending on your philosophy) either as a deterrent to others, as a corrective method (to hopefully help/teach the preson), or just simply for the protection of society (such as the case of an unrepetant murderer). To me, the most optimal solution is always that a person changes their course, and takes pains to be a better person and make the world a better place in some world. Atonement, if possible, but in the case of murder – I’m not sure what kind of atonement really IS possible. So in that case, what do we do with murderers? Just kill them? Does that accomplish anything? IS there any redemption actually possible for them. (Of course, in real life this is more complicated by the fact that we can’t ever really be sure of a person’s interior state).
I understand that it feels frustrating when a person has done a bad thing, but then doesn’t have some kind of proportionate consequence and maybe even ends up having a good life. I don’t know what the answer is to that though.
That said, I absolutely do think future books will deal with the impact of his book being made wide knowledge.
I do 100% agree with Gepeto that Adolin’s killing of Sadeas is in not equivalent to this. I am still not even sure I consider it murder, given that he was openly threatening his family and had already harmed his family so he had reason to believe he could make good on that threat. I’m not saying it was the most morally upright response but I think there is at least some justification of it. Nor was it done in a way meant to intimidate or cause the most amount of pain and fear or send a ‘message’.
@98: Dalinar removed Evi from his life and by doing so he also removed her from his family life. For him, it is as if she never existed. Try to put yourself within children’s shoes and see what it means for your dead parent to no longer exist. It doesn’t matter which specific memory Dalinar could have shared, Evi is dead and gone, the memory of her existence something the kids have to hide to share instead of something to be used to bond together. If I were to be gone tomorrow, the last thing I would want would be for my partner to never mention my name ever again to my kids. It doesn’t matter what memory could be shared, the mere fact this person once existed is often enough. And Dalinar took it away.
It’s just… not right to remove a dead parent from memory entirely. The fact other people had memories too doesn’t make it any better, especially if this person is Navani who always looked down on Evi or faraway uncle Toh whom the boys actually never met.
Those kids never had a family life and when their mother died, she had to die a second time around when Dalinar choose to kill her memories. That’s how it would feel to them: to have the memory of their mother being erased as no one has any reason to speak of her, to mention her, to act as if she once existed. Whether or loved her or not, Dalinar had a responsibility towards his children and he didn’t take it.
@99: What’s the point of consequences? To pay a price for crimes commited. To not allow your actions go unpunished. Justice. Fairness. Believing when a man goes as far as Dalinar goes, karma is going to hid him back. Because nothing is ever free, even redemption and so far, Dalinar’s redemption was fairly unexpensive.
In the case of a narrative, I would add to have readers believe Dalinar has the right to redeem himself, had actually earned it, had pay enough of a price to claim it. It would make Dalinar sympathetic as opposed to entitled, but I come from a different mold than other readers, his drunken scenes drew my anger out, not my pity.
What do we do with murderers? In an ideal world, you look them out in prison and give them therapy hoping by the end of their term they will have progressed enough to redeem themselves within society. Granted, that can’t happen in Alethkar which is why I was looking for more realistic consequences, more minor stuff as minor as having a family reject you for what you did. That’s actually *very* common in real-life, for family members to cut ties with parents who do hurtful things.
And yes, that’s what bothers me with Dalinar. He did awful things but he *is* living a good life. He even marries the woman he always loved! He is a powerful Bondsmith, he *almost* talk with God, can things really be better for Dalinar? Hard to say. I guess win the Desolation, but fact remains Dalinar is currently having a good life, despite circumstances he doesn’t control.
I consider what Adolin did was murder which deserves consequences, but not something he needs to redeem himself for as a human being. Though realistically, Adolin may need to redeem himself to Dalinar’s eyes.
@99 lisamarie
You make some good points. What is the point of punishment? What is the point of punitive damages? What is the point of jail? Prevention. Ensure the individual who committed the crime will not commit the crime again. Reformation. Ensure the individual who committed the crime will reform and become a productive member of society. Both have occurred, voluntarily by Dalinar. He did it to himself. He punished himself. He emotionally and mentally self flagellated himself continually for years. It reaches the point where I would question what would external punishments accomplish? What would be the point? It wouldn’t change anything. At all. Those who were killed are still dead. It won’t bring them back. Dalinar tortured himself plenty, so he clearly didn’t get off scott free. The point of punishment has already been accomplished. Dalinar is currently on parole.
Yeah – which is not to say that if a person got a way with murder, and then once they were found years later, they shouldn’t have to serve jail time even if they had been living a ‘good life’.
Which I think goes to Gepeto’s point that we as a society/humans need a sense of fairness, I suppose – we need to see, perhaps for our own sake, and also as a deterrent to others, that there ARE consequences (not just internal consequences, even though the internal ones may be the most important) to things. It’s an interesting conundrum, I suppose. Because really, we talk about ‘paying the price’, but to whom? To whom are we paying? What are we paying? What is it actually buying?
I really don’t know – I don’t have an easy answer either.
@102 Lisamarie
There is a legal term for that exact scenario. It is “statute of limitations”, though murder is among those excluded. Though deaths during war are classified differently. Regardless we have the benefit in this case of seeing the penalization that Dalinar went through. From a out-world narrative perspective I do not see the point of further punitive measures. He has been punished, and is seeking to reform and atone, both of which are the goals of modern day judicial system. From an in-world perspective, we have already covered the Alethi legal system.
Yeah, well, my one even semi personal experience with a statute of limitations involves a sexual molestation case that ultimately allowed a murderer (unrepentant) to escape prosecution for his crimes until he got busted for something else (and then also part of the plea deal where he revealed the location of the body involved NOT being charged in the murder).
So i definitely get why on a personal level it feels…viscerally unfair. Especially because it does seem to kind of send a message that if you can get away with something and not get caught then you escape punishment. But of course in that case there wasn’t real repentence.
@104 Lisamarie
Exactly. In your situation (and understanding it is a sensitive subject, so if at any point you wish to drop the subject, I understand) as you said the individual was seeking to avoid punishment. For Dalinar in a world where he would not be penalized, he punished himself. So in your situation, punishment/imprisonment would be warranted to prevent the individual from continuing the practice, and attempt to reform the individual. I think there is a disconnect with “living a good life” and “living a good life”. One is “living a good life” to help others, correct the problem, and try to prevent others from causing that problem. That would be Dalinar. Then there is “living a good life” which I would gather you feel that individual got to do, which is living carefree without consequences. That is not Dalinar. He lived every single day with the consequences of his actions and tormented himself over them. He was his own jail cell
edit: i am hesitant to use this example as this is a personal experience to you. if this ends up making you feel uncomfortable, please say and i will delete this portion of my post. My point earlier about reaching a point of torture porn is, if in your situation it could be conclusively proven to you that the individual while not apprehended by the law, was mentally and emotionally tormented over what that individual did to you, what would throwing that person in jail accomplish? It wouldn’t change anything for the person. They were already tormented over it. They already suffered more than they could in prison. Would it potentially make you feel better? Perhaps, but at that point it would be more for personal revenge than from any actual desire to punish the individual. Hopefully I didn’t cross any lines and if so I apologize and as I said will promptly delete this portion.
@105 Scath
I don’t think wanting someone to go to jail even if they are truly sorry is necessarily about revenge. If a victim doesn’t feel safe (they aren’t going to simply get over what happened to them even if the perpetrator now feels bad about it), then jailing the person who harmed them can give the victim peace of mind, and if the criminal is truly sorry, then perhaps they would recognize that the one thing they can give their victim is peace of mind.
@104: And if he were, if the guy had been repentant, would it absolve him from serving his time in jail and having his crimes being named? Shouldn’t the victims matter more than the criminal and shouldn’t their need to see justice being carried through surpasses the criminal’s right to repentance? Since when do the criminals have stronger rights than the victims? Since when should we feel MORE SORRY for criminals than we do for the victims? Since when it is more important to ensure the criminals have the chance to live a “good life” then it is for the victims to feel reassure the system is working?
That’s the problem with Dalinar, he gets away not only with his actions (which we all agree he was always going to get away with within the in-world context), but he gets away not being BLAMED for them. Somehow, this strikes me as important.
@106: I agree. It isn’t just about revenge, it is about knowing there are consequences to actions even if you are sorry for having done them. There is justice, fairness and laws which takes away from the street people who’d harm others even if some may be repentant. It is about knowing the right of the victims surpasses the right of the criminals. It is about punishing the right people, the culprits, not the victims by forcing them to swallow a repentance and having them watch this guy walk away from jail because he convinced the jury he was sorry enough.
How many trials end up this way? Ah, the guy was mentally compromised so we can’t held him accountable for having knifed his two kids to death while they were sleeping. The poor soul is genuinely sorry and was suffering from a bout of depression, let’s allow him to skip jail…. He has suffered enough.
That’s a real story. The case went to the superior court. The judgment was reversed and the guy was sent to jail for 18 years. Leniency on the basis of a “poor broken soul” threatened to have people lose faith within the entire justice apparel. And those kids deserved a lot better than *that*.
I’d like to move the conversation away from examples of real-world crimes/trials–while I understand the potential value such examples have in debating the events of the book, it moves the conversation further away from the actual chapters under discussion (and takes us into an area in which private individuals’ lives, deaths, and horribly traumatic experiences as victims are part of the discussion, which is beyond the scope of this site, and not something we’re comfortable moderating.) Thanks.
Thanks – I’ll just say that nobody had upset me (so no worries there) and it’s not anything that was *directly* personal to me (I was a few degrees separated, but it was a fairly well publicized case. Basically, I have family in the area it happened and it was a very big deal there). To clarify, the guy was not repentant or mentally compromised either and at the very least appeared to still be engaging in some criminal activities. But obviously in the interest of moderation, etc, it’s not a topic to dwell on.
But I think it does bring up a lot of interesting questions, especially how it relates to guilt and consequences. I’m more or less okay with what Dalinar is going through at this point, in part becuase we are in his head. But also since he’s making a point to confess and take responsibility and I think that WILL have some consequences he will need to accept.
I hope this doesn’t go against the mod rules as it’s techincally a ‘true’ case but it’s over a hundred years old (I’ll try to keep the details vague especially as there are other triggering aspects to the story especially when they are clumisly handled) is one that involves a saint (although in this case the saint was the murder victim). The murderer experienced an alledgedly miraculous conversion while in prison (allegedly due to the victim’s intercession). But he, despite becoming a model prisoner, served the full term with no complaints becuase that was what his due was, and then lived his life after his release as a gardner in a monestery. Letters were found when he died where he writes about taking responsibility/accountability for his crimes. So that is always when I think about when I think about things like this guy – he obviously didn’t seek glory or fame or really even ‘freedom’ after that. He served his term, and then went on to a life of service, knowing he had to pay his dues. Dalinar is perhaps in a different scenario as he is basically needed to help save the world, but I wonder what will become of him after that (assuming he survives).
@109: I definitely agree Dalinar is taking step to take full responsibilities and there may be consequences to that. Earlier within this thread, I mentioned my hopes his book will provide the perspective I felt wasn’t explored just as I hope other characters will not brush it away as a “non-issue”. So, I am definitely willing to RAFO on that.
What should happen to Dalinar after the events of the first half shall he survived? I personally think living the rest of his life in servitude, giving back to the community in any ways he sees fit, moving himself away from powerful positions nor leadership ones, shedding away luxury, all in atonement for the man he once was is something I would love to read.
@109 Lisamarie
I think the difference I keep coming back to is what happened to Dalinar wasn’t just “guilt”. He was in torment every second of every day. Never ending screams every moment of every day. His jail cell was his mind. His prison sentence served. I still do not see how a jail cell or people not liking him would equate. The purpose of punishment as you yourself mentioned in the penal system is to 1. stop the crime. 2. provide punitive measures. 3. reform the individual. All three goals have been accomplished. To me any jail time would be pure lip service. It would accomplish nothing. We know for a fact what Dalinar went through. Based on WoB, I believe the voices in Dalinar’s head was the spiritual remnants of those from the Rift as well as Evi, and they forgave him and felt it was enough. So the injured parties feel the punitive measures were enough to accomplish reformation, I do not see the point of further punitive measures.